Trained and Untrained at the same

[RockyMountainMare]

So I have a horse whom I’ve had for about a year now, and I love her to pieces. She’s young, about 10, and in good health. She’s trained decently, very sensitive to the seat and fun as hell to ride when she’s feeling good. She’s gaited so I’ve been working with a trainer to learn how to ride her better. Oddly enough though is that because she’s a rescue, she’s literally afraid of everything and seems to have very little grasp on basic training.

She is afraid of putting on blankets, saddles, and usually looks anxious when I bring them out. I’ve been working on it with her but she’s definitely a nervous horse and it takes constant daily work to get her used to something and the next day she seems afraid of it all over again. Once they’re on her she’s fine, though. She’s never been bareback ridden that we know, my friend with more experience hopped on her and got dumped immediately, tried again, and she was on her fine but it took a while before she calmed down and didn’t look like she was about to bolt. Every butt twitch made her nervous. She acts like an untrained filly! We theorize that she may have been aggressively trained quickly and basically they skipped all her basics, groundwork, etc and probably threw in quite a bit of abuse while at it because the first six months I had her I couldn’t scratch my nose without her flinching and running.

That being said, she’s an amazing girl, she’s super smart and really wants to learn and try. I can tell when she’s trying really hard to stay still and be good, her lip quivers and eyes are wide but she stands still. She’s never kicked me, bitten, bucked or hurt me in any way, even on her freak outs she’ll jump away from me. When up in the saddle she holds back her spooks to just flinching and maybe a butt tuck if real scared but doesn’t take off. I fell off her awhile back when she tripped (not her fault, mostly mine) and I’m sure it scared the bejeeses out of her but she stopped and came back to see if I was okay. She tries so hard and it means the world to me, but she’s definitely a handful.

i guess I’d like to know if anyone has gone through this with their own horses, how they progressed and if they managed to train them to be calm, confident and less spooky? It’s wild to me that she’s so push button in the arena but really untrained in other ways. I really love her and I see that she’s trying but she was seriously abused before I got her and I sometimes feel at a loss for being able to handle her.

[Jenerationx]

@RockyMountainMare

So I have a horse whom I’ve had for about a year now, and I love her to pieces. She’s trained, very sensitive to the seat and

Are you a suspense writer?

[RockyMountainMare]

@Jenerationx

Are you a suspense writer?

Haha sorry! Dang thumbs pressed send before I finished typing.

[Jenerationx]

I think a lot of us have dealt with a horse that has holes in their training somewhere. The biggest advice I can give is don’t worry about the past or what the horse may have done or not done. Train the horse in front of you today. Accept who she is and what she knows today, and train that. Every day. If that means basics, that’s where she is today.

[Scribbler]

I would just go back to square one and treat her like she is a two year old that grew up on the range. There’s lots of resources out there on groundwork and starting colts.

I’ve been working the past few months with a horse that was sold as spoiled for riding about 5 years and since then has lived on a field and had a foal. I’ve just systematically tried to find the training holes one by one, make sure I don’t chastise her, and spend quality time with her. We haven’t tried riding her yet. But I’ve been dealing with things like her go-to response being to run backwards 10 steps, sit down, and then pop up in front. To picking up her feet or trying to put a bit on or showing her a wash rack hose or swishing the longe whip. We are making progress.

I myself would not feel safe riding a horse in the emotional state of your mare. I’d stay off her and do a month of groundwork and then see where you are

[RockyMountainMare]

@Scribbler

I would just go back to square one and treat her like she is a two year old that grew up on the range. There’s lots of resources out there on groundwork and starting colts.

I’ve been working the past few months with a horse that was sold as spoiled for riding about 5 years and since then has lived on a field and had a foal. I’ve just systematically tried to find the training holes one by one, make sure I don’t chastise her, and spend quality time with her. We haven’t tried riding her yet. But I’ve been dealing with things like her go-to response being to run backwards 10 steps, sit down, and then pop up in front. To picking up her feet or trying to put a bit on or showing her a wash rack hose or swishing the longe whip. We are making progress.

I myself would not feel safe riding a horse in the emotional state of your mare. I’d stay off her and do a month of groundwork and then see where you are

That’s what I think we are going to have to do. I’ve been off of her for about a week now just trying to work on groundwork, desensitizing and what not. She’s doing really well, but she has her good days and bad days. Sometimes it’s like she’s a totally chill and happy horse with no fear, and some days shes having a meltdown where she flinches at every noise.

I have to admit, I think I’m a little under qualified to train her myself but at least I’ve got friends who know a lot more than me and are fearless. I’ll probably let them work with her more in the saddle and I’ll focus on groundwork so I don’t undo anything.

[RockyMountainMare]

@Jenerationx

I think a lot of us have dealt with a horse that has holes in their training somewhere. The biggest advice I can give is don’t worry about the past or what the horse may have done or not done. Train the horse in front of you today. Accept who she is and what she knows today, and train that. Every day. If that means basics, that’s where she is today.

Thank you for the motivational words! It’s comforting to hear that people go through this with their own horses. She’s so fragile but also a very considerate horse. If she was any ounce of violent she’d be too much for me, but because she tries so hard and wants to learn I don’t want to give up on her.

[Scribbler]

A lot of spookiness is bottled up energy. I’ve been lucky that my particular Feral Meryl will free longe nicely, she holds a 20 meter circle around me in the larger arena. She will run off her wiggles without getting upset, if that makes sense. Anyhow, letting her get a good run several times a week keeps the jitters down.

[GraceLikeRain]

A huge portion of the horses that I have met over the years have gaps in their foundation. This may manifest in their understanding under saddle or on the ground. Personally, unless I have first hand knowledge that someone beat a horse, I never use the label of “abuse”. It immediately makes people tiptoe around the horse, excuse behaviors, and treat them differently. Just treat her like a horse. If there is something she doesn’t understand, calmly break it down into smaller pieces until you find what she does understand. If a year later she’s still demonstrating these behaviors, I think it makes a lot of sense to pause riding and focus on groundwork basics for a few weeks. Trisan Tucker is an amazing resource.

[TKR]

I’m a breeder of about 40 years as well as someone whose niche has been the babies. I’ve started probably 200 over the years, licensed trainer and exercise rider at the track - many that I also started. I would go back to ground work. Your mare lacks confidence and trust, something that is important to instill in a young horse as well as a horse as you describe. It’s really important to establish a routine that you don’t vary from - such as grooming. Crosstied she should stand quietly in the middle of the crossties and not swing her hips around or move around. Don’t be harsh, just keep correcting her by placing her where you want and praising her. Groom her in the same steps daily. Pick up her hoofs in the same order, reward in the same places, etc. She would probably benefit from being sacked out, starting slowly and progressing until she is confident and establish her looking to you for guidance and trust. I have them walk on tarps and then pass by a hanging tarp that touches them at their stall door and then hang it so they have to duck their heads to go under. Stuff a large trash bag with whatever will fill it and place it in her paddock and let her just deal with it. Anything you can think of to let her deal with whether with you showing her or putting it in her paddock. Do some longing along the same way so she maintains a soft contact and stays on the circle and maintains whatever gait you wish. Keep her head slightly to you and maintain her attention. I would do some ground driving as well and really establish her ground manners to handle, groom, tack up, lead, etc. and then while longing or driving. Groundwork and manners can establish the confidence and trust she lacks and set her up for riding - which should follow a similar protocol - it’s baby steps, a process that is never over. Good luck - always give her the benefit of the doubt unless she is obviously testing you or being naughty.

[eightpondfarm]

How i do it with sad cases is with a lot of agreement on their side. That’s basically my schtick… They make the choice, without any pressure, to be with me. Example- older (22) arab mare. She began here five years ago franticly reactive to touch, hard to catch in the pasture, flinchy and yet stoic when haltered. She was tense when flysprayed, when tacked up, and really difficult to bridle. Quite headshy! Ok for farrier, saddling, mounting and responsive and soft undersaddle. But unhappy and uncomfortable with people.
How i’ve unscrambled her is a) finding out that she prefers sweet over savory for treats. (i use breakfast cereals: Wheat chex which i sugarcoat for her) I started by bringing her into the barn from pasture and about 2/3 of the time just brushing her on a loose lead, just flipped around the bar on the gate one rotation. She could pull back or leave at will. And when she did, and i would gently and sweetly go get her and walk her back. And next time, just flipping lead rope over without even one wrap. With treats delivered liberally as we got there. Never harsh, never demanding. Whenever she pulled back i gave her MORE freedom. (weird i know, but that’s how i am)

She now comes up to me or nickers low and quietly when i go out to the pasture with a halter. Comes in at my shoulder without stopping. Goes right up to the rail and we have very long grooming/flyspray/bridling, unbridling (with treats), before tacking up for a little ride. Need to mention here that i work with her not being tied. Sometimes ground tied, but more often she may not even have a halter on, the main deal with her is that she knows that she is free and has a choice. And i know that she has chosen to be groomed and tacked. This is where we are now, and it is a fulfilling thing to me.
Our sessions are short in the saddle…and long in the grooming. She’s going to be my dressage lesson horse when this Corvid19 thing subsides and i get to start lessons. She has become a good friend.

My other project is a mule. A big(!) grulla that has flung and tried to stomp three well-known muletrainer men. I was told she’d “just as soon kick you as not” She’s now to the point where she will sidle up to me, ever so cautiously, when i’m sitting on a rail above her for back scratches. She came here aloof and shy to touch about 8 or 9 months ago. Do not know if she has KS or not…i’ll be trailering her to MIZZOU vet teaching hosp if i think we’re going to get her ‘there’. She’s 17. Her mobility/athleticism is good. And ‘hunters bump’ on her back has subsided. Right now, i’m perfectly happy letting her be a pasture pet, and that just may be that’s all i will ever ask from her. Right now, she’s squishy-lovey and dog-tame on the ground… SAFE to be around on the ground. I could have a picnic underneath her she’s that tame.

[buck22]

@RockyMountainMare

It’s wild to me that she’s so push button in the arena but really untrained in other ways. I really love her and I see that she’s trying but she was seriously abused before I got her and I sometimes feel at a loss for being able to handle her.

Its also possible she may not be as trained under saddle as you think. She just might have a heart of gold and be a real try-er. It’s incredible how the really, genuinely good-natured ones will look after a person and do the best they can to understand and comply, despite having no clue of what’s being asked of them. Good-hearted horses can fill in a TON.

Sadly, its these types of horses - especially the sensitive ones - that get the most mixed up by people.

Keep going along the path you’re on – realizing you need more knowledge, asking for help from those you trust, asking plenty of questions, keeping an open mind, listening to your horse, and being her advocate.

When you feel like you don’t know what you’re doing: follow your inner compass and do what “feels” right, honor to the little voice in your mind, and always be respectful and compassionate. As long as you do, your horse will respect you, trust you, continue to try for you, and give you everything she’s got.

It takes time. The two of you will eventually get there. And you’ll have forged an amazing, once-in-a-lifetime relationship as a result.

[RhythmNCruise]

@RockyMountainMare what do you feed your mare? The way you describe her as being calm one day and super spooky the next sounds like my gelding right now, and I’ve owned him for 11 of his 12 years and have done all of his training, so if there are any holes, I know about them and am responsible for them. He’s always been calm and quiet, but since moving to a new barn and getting put on a new feed, he’s changed into an unpredictable, over-reactive mess. Like your mare, he has good days and bad, but the good days are usually because everything has gone perfectly for him…no wind, no distractions, nothing moved into a new place to flip out over, no landscaping crew making lots of noise and scary movements. If it’s a calm, sunny, quiet day…he’s fine. If it’s anything else…he’s uptight, anxious, and spooky.

I’m pretty positive it’s the feed change for my guy, and we’re in the process of correcting it now. He cannot tolerate grain of any kind. He’s been on a grain-free, high fiber, high fat, forage-based diet his entire life, and got switched to a high-grain diet (unbeknownst to me).

So, it’s something to look at. If she’s on any grain at all, maybe look at removing that and putting her on all forage. See if that helps her calm down and be less reactive.

There still might be holes in her training, and you still may have some work to do, but taking away any extra, unneeded energy from starchy grains could help you have a calmer horse to work with.

[Guilherme]

A very good program for “restarting” a horse (although it’s not sold as such) is found in the classic book Common Sense Horsemanship by Vladimir Littauer. It’s technically a preparation for the beginning hunt horse but if you think about a well trained hunt horse is a very nice horse to have. It is a program that takes seven months to complete, has very clearly defined goals, and the goals are “progressive” (you begin with Goal A-1 and you do NOT progress to goal A-2 until competence in A-1 one has been reliably demonstrated). This “by the numbers” approach is not liked by people who want to be “intuitive” with their horses but it does works reliably and it works well.

There are other programs out there but this one is really quite good and is cheap, at the cost of the book from Amazon and downloading from UTube a number of his videos that he made when he was teaching in the '50s at a woman’s college in the Northeast.

Rescue horses present special training needs. All horses have phenomenal memories and once they learn something they don’t forget it. You have to overlay new memories on top of the old by way of very quiet, consistent handling. Over time, unless the horse is truly “brain damaged”, your new memories will take precedence. But the old ones are ALWAYS there and can come back in sometime unfortunate circumstances. That is the lot of the rescue horse and it’s owner.

So, Google Littauer and see if you like what you see.

Good luck as you go forward.

G.

[midkniggit]

Interestingly, I have a Tennessee Walker who sounds very similar. Very anxious, wants to please, and is so afraid of disobeying that he works himself up into a panic. He’s never bucked, reared or bolted with me, but I can feel the tension build in him like a spring winding tight, and he starts dancing with his front feet, head cranked up like a giraffe. He always has such an anxious eye and face. He’s 15 and I’ve had him a year, so I don’t really know what happened to him before me. The previous owner seemed very nice, but she’d only had him 2 years I think, so he had a long history before that.

He’s great on trails and has clearly had tons of trail miles. Hills, logs, bridges, water, traffic, even little kids on bicycles don’t seem to upset him. In his own paddock, I can ride him with enormous farm vehicles working 50 feet away and he barely acknowledges them. However, he seems to have very little other training. He just doesn’t bend, doesn’t respond to leg cues, half halts, and other cues. He was clearly ridden with his nose cranked into his chest a lot, and doesn’t know what to do with relaxed reins or light contact.

I’ve spent a lot of time on calm in-hand work, mainly at the walk, introducing bend and trying to get him to relax and stretch down. I go out and groom him in the field to spend some time with him. He’s slowly improved, but I haven’t had enough time to work with him regularly.

I actually decided that he needs more consistent work than I can offer right now, so I’m sending him to a local trainer who has a strong dressage background, but has also done a lot of trail competitions and work with gaited horses. She’ll keep him for a couple months.

Her approach is basically going to be starting over from square one. Treat him like an untrained horse, though she’ll obviously be able to progress very quickly through some areas.

[kande04]

[QUOTE=eightpondfarm;n10648593]
…This is where we are now, and it is a fulfilling thing to me.
Our sessions are short in the saddle…and long in the grooming. She’s going to be my dressage lesson horse when this Corvid19 thing subsides and i get to start lessons. She has become a good friend.

I’ve just been reading about Elsa Sinclair, who I think teaches similar techniques? I haven’t watched her videos yet, but I plan to because I think it’s probably something I need to know more about.

[QUOTE]My other project is a mule. A big(!) grulla that has flung and tried to stomp three well-known muletrainer men. I was told she’d “just as soon kick you as not” She’s now to the point where she will sidle up to me, ever so cautiously, when i’m sitting on a rail above her for back scratches. She came here aloof and shy to touch about 8 or 9 months ago. Do not know if she has KS or not…i’ll be trailering her to MIZZOU vet teaching hosp if i think we’re going to get her ‘there’. She’s 17. Her mobility/athleticism is good. And ‘hunters bump’ on her back has subsided. Right now, i’m perfectly happy letting her be a pasture pet, and that just may be that’s all i will ever ask from her. Right now, she’s squishy-lovey and dog-tame on the ground… SAFE to be around on the ground. I could have a picnic underneath her she’s that tame.

We had a mule for 31 years who we bought as a 4 year old out of a pasture in KY. He was half starved and semi feral when we got him, but ended up The Best Mule Ever. He never became as trusting as our horses and was always at least a little worried and on the lookout for any kind of an aggressive move, but he was such a good guy. We rode him, drove him single, double, and 3up, and I clicker trained him to bow at liberty, yet we still had to be very careful how we approached him or he’d shy away.

We also raised a couple of Halflinger mules because we thought if we handled them from birth they’d be more trusting than the one we bought. Now maybe if we’d had more time and handled them a lot more they would have been, but they were both even more reactive and still almost as wary as The Best Mule Ever. I spent a lot of time with one of them, both on the ground and in the saddle, and even though he’s now 25 he can still be spookier and more reactive (more violent in his reactions) than any of our horses.

[moonlitoaksranch]

I wish rescue horses could tell us their stories sometimes. Great job giving her a chance! Time and gentleness heals most things with horses. Stay safe and get professional help if you hit a bad spot.

When I rescued a highly reactive Morgan mare, I paid for a trainer that specialized in saddleseat (which was the mare’s original training) to ride her for me and tell me what she could about her. The insight was definitely worth every penny. The most disconcerting thing was that the mare was go, go, go with full animation under saddle and the bridle would do nothing but enhance that reaction. I used half halts and lowered hands to slow her down, and then spent a lot of time rubbing her neck to get her to relax. We did a lot of fast trotting in the arena until she learned that it was okay to relax. I had to undo all the BNT stuff she had been taught. The mare responded well to long grooming sessions and rubdowns. It really helped.

[RockyMountainMare]

@midkniggit

Interestingly, I have a Tennessee Walker who sounds very similar. Very anxious, wants to please, and is so afraid of disobeying that he works himself up into a panic. He’s never bucked, reared or bolted with me, but I can feel the tension build in him like a spring winding tight, and he starts dancing with his front feet, head cranked up like a giraffe. He always has such an anxious eye and face. He’s 15 and I’ve had him a year, so I don’t really know what happened to him before me. The previous owner seemed very nice, but she’d only had him 2 years I think, so he had a long history before that.

He’s great on trails and has clearly had tons of trail miles. Hills, logs, bridges, water, traffic, even little kids on bicycles don’t seem to upset him. In his own paddock, I can ride him with enormous farm vehicles working 50 feet away and he barely acknowledges them. However, he seems to have very little other training. He just doesn’t bend, doesn’t respond to leg cues, half halts, and other cues. He was clearly ridden with his nose cranked into his chest a lot, and doesn’t know what to do with relaxed reins or light contact.

This is exactly my mare! No violent aggressive behavior, super try hard and basically is so fearful of punishment that she tries to predict my movements and over compensates. Same situation with a previous owner too, she had her for a year, did plenty of trails and that’s obviously where my mare is most comfortable, she’s even fine walking on tarps and through water. Last owner said she was a wreck when she first brought her home, would cower at the back of the stall and shake, she also knew her as a filly before she was bought and she was a sweet confident happy girl, but something changed along the way as she got passed along. Ended up finding her at a boarding facility abandoned for 6 months when her owners moved out of state and left her. No idea what happened in that time if she was abused or left to be used by anyone who knew she had no one looking after her. Her last owner did a lot to help my mare trust people again somewhat, but we both think she was never formally trained on top of it all. I’ve got her to the point when she greets me happily, but she still panics around strangers, loud noises, sneezes, and the odd random spook at nothing. She can’t bend either, I had to teach her how to collect, no rollbacks or fancy moves at all, and is so sensitive to leg and the seat that I can’t itch a buttcheek without her moving one way. It’s such a hit or miss with what she knows.

I’ve been working with a trainer, but like you I think I need to up my time with her on both groundwork and in the saddle. She’s a challenging case to rescue but it’s because of that willingness to please and trying nature I’m not giving up on her! I’m glad you’re sticking with your TW too, I think they appreciate it more than we know!

[RockyMountainMare]

@RhythmNCruise

@RockyMountainMare what do you feed your mare? The way you describe her as being calm one day and super spooky the next sounds like my gelding right now, and I’ve owned him for 11 of his 12 years and have done all of his training, so if there are any holes, I know about them and am responsible for them. He’s always been calm and quiet, but since moving to a new barn and getting put on a new feed, he’s changed into an unpredictable, over-reactive mess. Like your mare, he has good days and bad, but the good days are usually because everything has gone perfectly for him…no wind, no distractions, nothing moved into a new place to flip out over, no landscaping crew making lots of noise and scary movements. If it’s a calm, sunny, quiet day…he’s fine. If it’s anything else…he’s uptight, anxious, and spooky.

There still might be holes in her training, and you still may have some work to do, but taking away any extra, unneeded energy from starchy grains could help you have a calmer horse to work with.

Ive got my mare on forage and grain, 3 Timothy hay flakes a day and a bucket with low carb no molasses senior, Timothy pellets, rice bran, salt, and amino acids supplement. I have no doubt the amino acids give her some oompf to her energy, but unfortunately I can’t pull her off of it yet. We recently started back to work after a 4 month lay up after colic surgery (been a few months now). She lost a lot of weight and muscle. I also use her daily bucket as a way to load her up with water too, I basically drown it all into a soup so I know shes getting at least 2 gallons with it alone. The colic was induced by stones + impact so I’m not taking any chances with her water intake. I’d love to keep her on forage alone honestly, I think you’re right in that it might improve her but I think as of now I just have to work her energy out on a lunge line.

if anything, she is better than the day I got her. She hasn’t bolted on me and her spooks are less drastic than they used to be, but still there are really good days and really bad days.

[RockyMountainMare]

@buck22

Its also possible she may not be as trained under saddle as you think. She just might have a heart of gold and be a real try-er. It’s incredible how the really, genuinely good-natured ones will look after a person and do the best they can to understand and comply, despite having no clue of what’s being asked of them. Good-hearted horses can fill in a TON.

Sadly, its these types of horses - especially the sensitive ones - that get the most mixed up by people.

I think you’re right. She’s so smart, learns things quick but we are starting from the beginning with nearly everything that a basic trained horse should know. I had to train her how to collect, she turns on a dime nicely and doesn’t test anyone on her more than once (and it’s a wimpy test at that) though she didn’t even know how to lunge when I got her. We lunged her in a saddle and it took her half an hour to not be scared by the weight of an empty saddle—yet she’s been ridden consistently for two years. Putting on a blanket is scary, but sticks her head in the bridle with an open eager mouth. Loves trail, but nervous in an open arena. Can walk on tarps, but terrified of crops and lunge whips. She’s an enigma for sure!

That being said, I definitely feel like she wants to take care of me and have that assertive confident personality. I see it in her mannerisms, how she wants to lead on trail (but gets nervous once she’s up there), and how she is very demanding and sassy when she wants treats. She has a good heart and that’s why I’m sticking with her.

Thank you for the kind encouraging words!