@Mac123 - thank you!!! I love this & as soon as I get some new video I will gladly send it to you. I appreciate the help. I tend to learn by watching, reading, and doing. It’s best when I can do all 3!
The problem with this horse is that while there are holes (admittedly his lateral work is weak but we are really working hard on that) some days he comes out like an old pro. The tricky part with this horse is that it’s never consistent (it never really is with young horses)! Time to canter down to some jump with my hands to his ears
I didn’t read everything so forgive me if I am duplicating another’s response.
Some trainers are gifted horsemen/women and excellent riders, but not great teachers. Often the most talented are the worst at explaining, because they naturally do certain things that others of us mortals need to think through/understand intellectually in order to execute. It could be the case here. And it sounds as though she is only trying to communicate something to you (loose arms) in one way. I used to get that very same comment. It was only until my trainer finally said " you think your arms are loose but your elbows are just flapping" that it occurred to me that what i thought was a soft arm was my elbow poking out and disturbing the straight line to the horse’s mouth. Therefore any “softness” was lost. Watching yourself on video will help this. I know you said you ask questions. Can you ask her to rephrase her suggestions in another way, because you are having trouble “getting it?”
And young horses. ya who knows. Sometimes we are lucky and have ones that come out the same everyday. Sometimes not. IF you can’t see a clear pattern as to when it happens (based on his care routine or his work routine), don’t fret too hard. just stay patient and persistent. Maybe change it up and ride out in a field or on trail every so often so he doesn’t get sour and overdrilled.
Without knowing what breed your horse is and assuming it applies to others as well, I can say that I have had numerous young draft crosses over the years and 5 and 6 is alway seems to be the ‘holy shit, hang on’ year. It does get better. And its worth waiting for it when it does.
No problem! I’ve got a lot of old footage of my mare through the years I’m happy to share too…sometimes it’s helpful to see things in other horses, not just your own.
I have to say, though the holes are always there. Whether or not they show up in a given ride is related to his temperament or attitude that day. It’s like having a hole in the roof. The hole is always there, but you don’t notice it unless it rains.
When we were deep in this phase, my trainer friend would say to always push until you find the part where the wheels come off at least a little. Otherwise, it would feel like random luck when my mare was good or bad instead of recognizing it as her basic response to doing something that she didn’t want to. My mare is a lazy, hot, spooky warmblood. She’s sensitive and dull. It’s really quite the combination. When all the stars align, she’s the most amazing thing. But when she’s a little tired, or maybe a little back sore, or if it’s cold, or she thinks the exercise is hard or if whatever else, she can throw the most amazing tantrums to avoid working. And when I was leaving it to luck, it was the most inconsistent, frustrating thing ever because she could be amazing 1 day and terrible the next day with no seeming explanation.
Several years later, she’s consistently good with a hairy day here and there. But that’s because I used consistent training to get there. For a long time, I always pushed her to the part where she would fall apart a little because then we could work on the holes instead of just leaving her be when she came out of the box good. It’s kind of like climbing up on the roof to patch the hole, but not crawling all the way and thinking the hole has fixed itself that day. The hole is still there, you just haven’t reached it yet.
So on a day where he feels amazing, push the envelope. An adjustable canter was hard for my mare. Shoot, a comfortable consistent canter without fighting was hard. So on days where she came out and the canter felt easy, I used to just be so thankful for it being easy I didn’t ask for anything. So I didn’t find the hole. She was an apparent old pro…but not really, because it was all based on her mood or attitude. The better way to deal with this is to use that good easy canter work as a stepping point. If a basic canter is easy today, then let’s work on some shortening and lengthening. Push the envelope until you know it’s hard for them and see what the reaction is. If it’s “okay, I’m trying to day mom, no problem,” excellent. But if it’s “well screw you never mind,” you found the hole and now you have something to work on. That way you’re training their MIND.
Tattoo this into your brain: Him being good or bad or easy or hard isn’t random luck. It’s a function of how hard he feels like trying for you on a given day. The latter is trainable and fixable. Random luck is always random.
Don’t expect consistency in HIM. Expect consistency in YOU and in the program and alter him to you rather than the other way around.
Also, just to add…when you take the hand away, you’ll have to add a lot of other aids and exercises in. For example, we began by walking over poles on loose contact, staying straight and consistent. Then we proceeded to trot and canter. When she wanted to get fast, we would halt or add 1 rein stops or change the pattern, and I would work on using my body reinforced by the hand, then reinforced by halt and reinback if needed, before going back to a loose-reined approach. When she’d get crooked or unfocused or spooky, we’d do the most crazy patterns and transitions all softly but so variable that she had to tune in or she’d fall over.
You have to get really creative at solving the problem you’re feeling at the moment and getting them to tune in other ways instead of the hand.
If you JUST do no hand, it won’t be a quick fix.
So approach that jump on a loose rein, and if you feel him increase his tempo, think of something that will fix the increase in tempo. Maybe it’s a halt, maybe it’s a small circle, maybe it’s a downward transition…whatever you can do to shift the problem back in his court.
You’ll be saying “No, let’s do it this way” over and over again. If you stay calm and consistent, I bet you’ll see a lot of success.
Another way of thinking about it is that you have to train practically. We show on a 12 foot stride. While doing the add has it’s place in training, you can’t ride on an 8 or a 10 foot stride because your horse is too strong on the 12 foot stride. You have to train the 12 foot stride to be rideable. That’s just an example, but hopefully it makes sense. You can’t sacrifice 1 important thing (say, stride length) for another (control). They’re both equally important.
"So on a day where he feels amazing, push the envelope. An adjustable canter was hard for my mare. Shoot, a comfortable consistent canter without fighting was hard. So on days where she came out and the canter felt easy, I used to just be so thankful for it being easy I didn’t ask for anything. So I didn’t find the hole. She was an apparent old pro…but not really, because it was all based on her mood or attitude. The better way to deal with this is to use that good easy canter work as a stepping point. If a basic canter is easy today, then let’s work on some shortening and lengthening. Push the envelope until you know it’s hard for them and see what the reaction is. If it’s “okay, I’m trying to day mom, no problem,” excellent. But if it’s “well screw you never mind,” you found the hole and now you have something to work on. That way you’re training their MIND.
Tattoo this into your brain: Him being good or bad or easy or hard isn’t random luck. It’s a function of how hard he feels like trying for you on a given day. The latter is trainable and fixable. Random luck is always random."
@Mac123 - ^^^^ this is amazing and I find I can be in the same boat as you. When he is great, I find I do not want to push the issue but in reality I should be using his great attitude to do something that might be a little bit more challenging.
I agree about training on a 12 foot stride. The nice thing I took away from our ride yesterday is that he is getting overall more rideable (on good days of course). I do feel like my trainer really loves when horses are “packaged” and he really hates it. It is hard for a young horse to truly be packaged and carrying themselves correctly and if I catch him on an off day, well there goes his marbles.
I got to ride outside last night and he was amazing. I did in fact push the envelope due to our previous freak out in our lesson the day before. I worked on cantering the cavalettis in a quiet 7 but then moved him up comfortably for the 6, then back to the 7 - all on super soft contact (I pretty much two pointed and didn’t touch his face) and he found his own distances and didn’t push through the bit/my hands. How about that! It is amazing when you can actually feel what you are trying to get through to him sink in just a little bit more.
I guess when our horses wake up ready to perform - so should we! Excellent point you make! I will definitely keep that at the front of my mind for now on.
@spaceagevalkyrie - He is a warmblood - I have been told the 5-6 year old years will be pretty tough but man can he give me a run for my money. :lol: Thank you for your words of encouragement… I can’t wait to look back on these days and be proud of how far we have come. Even looking back from 2 years ago, the progress amazing. I have to trust the process and trust that I am doing the right thing for him… SIGH - we will get there! :yes:
You can do it! Trust me. I had one that was so bad I was threatening to turn him into glue sticks on a daily basis. One day out of nowhere he just pulled his head out of his ass of his own accord and just was perfect.
It is so hard to let go when you “know” that either a) horse will leave the travel line and head off in one of 10 directions, maybe all of them; or b) horse will rocket straight into the jump bars; or c) head will pop up into giraffe position where horse can’t see where he’s going and will be even more excited; or d) something else catastrophic.Because this horse is just on ‘go’ and not on ‘look where’, and/or horse is on ‘evade evade evade’.
But you are 100% right that the answer to all this is not the reins.
It’s hardest when we don’t know we are holding, as we are just reacting to the horse, rather than truly riding. From the seat & leg.
The reality is that when we’re just holding, we aren’t being proactive or effective or addressing the problems. We’re just stagnantly reacting to what we’re feeling, which is a hair above useless (and I think this is what translates to looking afraid or tentative).
I’ve been in similar situations with my horse. I bought him when he was 8 and barely broke, so we went through that “terrible 5” stage, just a little later in his life. He’s not an easy horse, and it took me several trainers to find the right fit. I learned amazing pieces along the way, but up until my current trainer, I couldn’t get anyone to just listen to what I was saying and feeling and help me debunk the issues. When I started with this trainer, I had her watch him for a month of lessons and then get on him and she was floored at how different he feels from how he looks. It made a world of difference for us since she now knew what I was feeling so we were able to work through training as a 3-unit team.
As you mentioned, you’re in a different scenario where your trainer no longer rides, but keep in mind if it doesn’t improve maybe you can move on to someone else. I know the facility and trainer are amazing and it’s nothing against them, but if it’s not the right fit, it’s not the right fit. Also keep in mind that the 5 year old turns 6, and the 6 year old turns 7. In my experience, by the time they’re between 8-10, they really settle down and mature so some of that baby nonsense doesn’t come through anymore.
Can you talk to your trainer outside of a lesson situation, or schedule an extended private lesson to really go through your frustrations with her? Sometimes all it takes is really grabbing their attention to what’s going on.
Food for thought - do you have access to clinics? I LOVE going to clinics and found it’s made such a difference in the way I ride and work with my horse. It doesn’t have to be an Olympian, but any local pro with a great reputation is worth trying out. They might have a unique perspective on what you’re going through that you can bring to your next lesson. Having more than one set of eyes on you and your horse helps so much, and don’t be afraid to go inter-discipline! Depending on what you do, check out dressage, hunter/jumper, or even low level cross country clinics. You’d be surprised what you can learn!
@OverandOnward & @Mac123 - you guys both put it in a way that I can totally understand it! Pilot, not passenger!
@Lyssabd - yes I do have access to clinics but recently sold my trailer. Hoping to get one soon. We were at an awesome Louise Serio clinic this summer. Day 1 went beautifully. Horse was amazing and I rode well. Day 2 we fell apart and she saw his weaknesses. Overall, she gave me a huge compliment and told me now nicely I have developed him and how he is quiet far along compared to others in the group.
A part of me has thought about finding someone who is capable of riding - and honestly I might be moving soon to a different area and will be having to look for someone else and it might be perfect timing for us without burning bridges. I am thinking with the situation at hand, it might be best for me to find someone that can both train and watch.
I really like how you approached the situation. Having her watch for a month gives her enough time to get an overall impression without getting an idea “set” about your horse or your riding style.
I need a teleprompter to project those words into the air in front of me while I ride … LOL
Wait, maybe a recording putting them into my ear at key moments. Or a trainer who can say them over and over.
This is what I got a lot from the trainers who would get on the horse, not worrying about how said pill of a horse would make them look in front of the riders and spectators. “This is not what I thought” was said by more than one clinician. Along with “he should be responding to you”. But then he’d pull out his best self, and they would be impressed.
My horse had the honor of nearly dumping an Olympic team rider during a clinic, over a BN grid exercise. He had her swinging out into the air in an almost-lawn-dart, but she recovered - it was a great save. I guess that was all the horse wanted to accomplish, because after that he went for her perfectly several times through the grid and she said he was “fun”. She was one person who was able to give me some very useful tips for keeping his butt in gear and his mind on his job, and said yes, he was worth working with. I was sorry she lived several states away. I guess you can’t exactly dump your career and all your human connections to move across the country just to work with a particular trainer … LOL
There were some good trainers/clinicians who just weren’t right for me & this horse … on any other horse, I would have worked with them in a heartbeat. But I learned that anyone who wasn’t totally bespoke about their teaching, as it were, who was even a little bit canned in their approach, observations and responses, was just not going to be worth the expense and time, even if some things were learned. Those were the ones I audited rather than clinic’ed. My very short list of helpful trainers was sterling quality, though.
5 and 6 were were my gelding’s rebellious years. Big time. It was between 5 1/2 and 6 1/2. Then, he finally started to mature, but he is so big & athletic that I ended up finding him a trainer who is perfect for both of us, he was for sale for 1/2 of last year, but off the market now. I finally have learned to ride his silliness, when it does sometimes happen, but now I’m having a blast with him.
After almost 30 years of doing all my own riding, this was a humbling experience to have a horse who I simply could not ride. But, my riding has improved immensely from working this much with a trainer.
It will probably be much better soon, he’ll probably grow up.
This is really helpful to read. As much as I love the current place I am at, you all really confirmed exactly how I am feeling is justifiable, even if the problems that I am having are some of mine as well. As another poster mentioned - it is crucial for a 3 part team. This horse honestly will make up to be outstanding, patience is just my best friend.
@SaddleFitterVA - “rebellious” is a perfect word to describe how I am feeling also. He has everything he needs to be set up for success. I really think the only part that is missing is the trainer that rides. He doesn’t need training rides all the time - but in terms of having that person that can at least understand how he feels and comes from a place of understanding instead of a “well it looks like he’s…” will really help have us come full circle.
The way I see it, we’re all in horses because we love it. We pay a lot of money to keep them, they are [most often] our best friends, and if something isn’t clicking or working out, try to fix it. If that doesn’t work, move on. We give too much of ourselves to keep them and be unhappy in a situation, and too short of time with them to stay with trainers that aren’t clicking. You’ll get through it, your thoughts are totally justified. Best of luck with this baby, he sounds fantastic!
Thank you so much @Lyssabd !!! He is pretty darn fantastic through and through - even on his bad days. I love him dearly and he has taught me so much about myself, about riding, and about being a good overall horse woman. I couldn’t agree with your statement anymore — we do give too much of ourselves to the sport (money, time, energy, etc).
I glad I have heard so many opinions on here because it really does confirm how I am feeling is ok and normal and many people have been in my same shoes.
We are showing for the first time in almost exactly a year on the 22nd - I hope to get some good videos and send to a couple people on here who said they could help critique. We got him out to a couple shows for his 4 year old and 5 year old year and then took our time to develop him in order for us to be more competitive.
Now we just have to find 8 and get our changes and everything will line up - isn’t that always the case? :lol::yes:
I really think you need to find someone who can sit on him too. The same trainer friend who was on me to let go also ended up getting on my mare. She was blown away by the feel. In some cases, she changed up her suggestions, and in others, she stuck to the same idea but either validated how I felt (“I can totally understand why you’re pulling right there”) - which made a world of difference to me - or had ideas to address it in a different way. A number of times she’d end up getting on even if it was just for 10 minutes.
Sometimes you just can’t see what’s really going on. My mare gives a very insecure feeling from about 3 strides out. It’s like she disappears from you even though she hasn’t gone anywhere and visually nothing changes. But it’s such an insecure feeling, it makes one want to grab hold. When my trainer friend understood what I was feeling, it was so helpful, both in understanding why I was insistent on pulling, lol, but in fixing it too.
I think there’s very few trainers that can accomplish everything from the ground. You can have the best eye in the world, but sometimes, unless you can also feel what the rider feels, it’s really hard to give to best possible advice.
I’ve had some easy 5-6 year olds that made me feel like a genius. And some hard ones. Really hard. The current 6 1/2 year old is full-fledged into the 'tude, and he’s the hardest yet. I am willing to do a lot of the work myself. Always have. I also dealt with some coming 5 yo antics and came out the other side a superstar with this current horse. Then there was a layup and other problems and now it’s o…m…g… He thinks that if he nickers at me all the time and gives the cute faces I’ll be distracted from all of the tantrums. So many tantrums!
One thing I’ve learned is that not everyone can really “read” the young horses and adjust the lesson accordingly. Or find the right exercises to bring out the holes to eventually get you both to those aha moments. Of those who can, not all of them can teach as in communicate effectively. In your situation, the best thing is to find one who can AND where that person can also ride. It’s not that you can’t ride or that you don’t know how to ride a youngster. But sometimes, we are too close. We are the mom. It kills me that some days I feel like I just don’t know what I’m doing and the horse is smarter than me.
I’m having a helluva time finding the right support myself. I’ve been through several people that weren’t right. Didn’t really get into this horse’s head. Others were frankly afraid to deal with him. Some that have been right in ability don’t fit for some other reason (such as, they want to travel a lot to shows for weeks at a time, and my horse isn’t ready for that but needs someone consistent).
It honestly does not sound like your current trainers are the right fit for your situation right now. When he decides to grow up, then maybe a trainer like yours will help you finesse.
