Trainer communication & terrible 5's (coming 6)? Anyone else?

Here’s an idea, if you feel like it is right for you, and this is the right trainer to do it with. And it might even help you determine if this trainer is the best option to help you.

Talk to your trainer about using one lesson, and instead of you riding, the trainer rides while you watch and listen. The lesson is the trainer riding the horse warm-up to cool-down and talking through what she is experiencing, and how she is handling each thing. She will get the full treatment from the horse. If you can open up some honest communication with your trainer during and after this ride, it could give some direction to how you proceed with this horse, and hopefully make you and your trainer far more effective with each other.

If your trainer says she doesn’t want to ride your horse, or not for the full lesson, find out why. Unless there is a very valid reason not related to the horse, I would have concerns. It is too easy to get on a horse for 3 or 5 minutes and make oneself look like a better rider than the one who was on for 30-45 minutes. But for some horses, they are a little bit Eddie Haskell with a new rider, and it is only after the 15 minute mark that they really start to rummage through their bag of special effects.

The horse may have the excuse of being only 5 or 6 years old … but you still have to survive this phase with him! :slight_smile: How you handle his tough period may have a long influence on how both of you improve over the next years to come. :slight_smile:

You sound like a caring rider who is doing everything you can to give this horse the best future he can have, by having the best foundational training you can give him. Kudos to you for going the extra mile for him. :slight_smile:

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@Mac123 - Thank you thank you thank you! Seriously - this is extremely helpful to hear. I am so thankful that someone else has been through this but you are on the the back side with the light at the end of the tunnel.

I also wanted to point out that in my ride tonight I rode with driving reins and jumped around on exercises of flower boxes and he was great! I flatted with them too and I could really feel a following elbow – what a different feel then having my reins the normal way. I felt like I couldn’t pull back as I found I don’t have as much strength with my hands that way - we found all the distances and through the 3 to the 5, I let the exercise back him off and I felt like there was a huge milestone gained with us. We were in our outdoor and it was a beautiful (80 degree) day and he was quiet as a church mouse! Super happy, but I know that won’t be every day.

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I have an unwritten rule - I wont ride with a trainer that can’t ride my horses. I usually hunt out trainers that are amazing with horses. Saying that, I know you are in the situation you are in and after reading the thread - not sure you are willing to seek that kind of help.

It’s okay to be an amateur; even one that rides really well and needs help. I see good professionals that get help as well. I understand your adventure with this horse… many of my horses have been simple and some more difficult requiring a different type of ride that I have to figure out. One of my horses 99% of the time is a saint - but that 1% comes out where underneath me he feels like he is going to kill me and that’s when I will pull. From the ground trainers will not see it because he’s so soft… but when they have been on him and he does that - they say wow I never knew. So if you are pulling - there is probably a reason. I have been doing more dressage type work with him. I do have to ride him different than my other horses - he needs strict direction and I must always ride as the leader or he will take over… (this is my 9 year old)

My current 6 year old will be fabulous for weeks then give me a wild day here and there. I have figured him out and just have to do much more trot and canter work staying relaxed… I often find myself being a bit flustered because he was just so good the day before. I don’t let that frustration get in my body… He feels it!!! I try to get him out of the arena and go for trail walks or ride in the Dressage court. That helps too.

I agree with many others that have said video… I watched a video of myself a few years ago and realized how stiff I rode and wondered why one of my more sensitive horses was always so stiff. He requires such a connected and feeling ride. I focus on feeling the corners of his mouth and my hands flow with those corners… keeping my hands a bit more separated and relaxed - allowing my shoulder joints to let my arms go. I keep my hip flexors soft and relaxed. Really helps him. (this is my 6 year old)

Different trainers are just that - different. You will find some you relate better than with others. I find I get a long with trainers that are more regimented and have a very organized system. Clinics are amazing but there are some clinicians I would love to ride with on a regular basis and bummed that I can’t. I find I cannot communicate with some trainers and just have to deal with it because there are other good qualities in their program that fit me. It’s so frustrating when you feel you are not on the same page with your trainer. Don’t be so much into what the barn has helped riders accomplish - all riders are different too. What works for them may not work for you. You are also on a green horse; maybe those that have made it to the MaClay have been on more seasoned horses. Don’t rule out a more humble facility… it may be just what you need.

IMHO it’s hard sometimes for a trainer to really understand what you are going through when they don’t ride your horse.

It boils down to what is right for you and your horse. Video would be great as well as seeking more trainer opinion and professional rides for your horse.

@IPEsq - ^^ this means so much to read after going through all of this. I really think you hit the nail on the head. Man those faces get me too - does your guy tilt his head & stick his nose in your face? Ugh, the worse. It melts my heart every.single.time.

I think eventually I will need to find someone who can partner with me from the ground and on his back. But I think in the meantime I might want to see if I can take some private lessons. See if we can uncover his holes and take some more time to really focus on them. I am looking for a new job in a different area and hoping that something falls into place soon so it would be a great way to solve two problems without burning bridges.

Another thing you brought up is the fact that it’s not that I can’t ride or that I don’t know how to ride a younger - its that I am too close… That really puts it into perspective for me. I struggle with feeling like I need to “prove” myself to my trainer that I am capable of piloting him. I know I am, but in a way through all of her questioning if I’m scared of him & other things she has said recently, she really has me feeling like she has no confidence in me as a rider. That really breaks down the line of communication between me and her. I don’t want to be the person that just hands my reins over to the pro every time there is a hiccup and unfortunately that seems like her idea of a solution when I honestly don’t feel the same way.

You are very lucky that you have had some that made you look like a genius. I need to let go of looking stupid or feeling like people will think I can’t ride - that is the beauty of babies.

@OverandOnward Thank you so much! I love this sport - and this horse! He is everything to me and has taught me so much. I cannot wait to see the places we end up. I am truly doing everything (within my budget) to set him up for success - even if it means handing over my reins temporarily! Great idea, I think I will talk to her about doing that. I am not quite sure if she will be willing to because of her age but I am thinking maybe I could set up a day with our professional rider and see if she can talk me through what she does and get a chance to pick her brain a little bit. I might have to take a half day from work but it would 100% be worth it!

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@doublesstable - Thank you so much. You really helped me to justify how I feel. As you said, some of the best even get help from other professionals so I think it is time for me to step out of the irons and have someone hop in; even if it’s temporarily to gage where he is at in his training and help us find/mend our holes. I think your 6 year old and mine might have a lot in common :wink: but mine might be only 85% saint at this point. Still not bad and totally worth it of course!

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I know you’ve got tons going on right now, but really, you need to find a different trainer. Someone who makes you feel less confident and like you’re less able is just not the right fit for you. While I had to get over the fact that I needed help with my mare, and I had to get over the fact that my friend could make it look easier or better than I could (which is really just a pride issue), she never made me feel incompetent or like I wasn’t doing a good job. Even when she would say that I looked tentative or ineffective, it was in an encouraging way. Like, “Hell, I’d be scared too, she just tried to launch you into kingdom come. But you have to push through that and really ride that corner differently in order to change her. Better you than me! But you can do it!”

There’s nothing wrong with having someone else on your horse or having extra help. I repeat - that’s a sign of confidence and strength as a rider. No one can possibly know everything and other riders will have different ideas that can be SO helpful. You wouldn’t tell a kid to not get a tutor because they’d seem stupid for doing so, would you? No, you’d encourage them to get extra help where they need it because THAT makes them become better. It’s the same thing here. You should have someone else sit on your guy and you should get help. Professional, amateur, whatever, everyone can benefit from eyes on the ground and a different butt in the tack. BUT, you shouldn’t be made to feel “less than” because you’re struggling or not getting it or need help or whatever. That’s just a recipe for disaster, because you need to be very confident on this type of horse.

When you question yourself, why shouldn’t your horse question you?

Oh, and great job on the driving rein! I actually had meant to suggest that because it helped (and still helps) me immensely…it makes it SO clear when I’m pulling and is really useful on days when I feel like I’ll truly die if I really let go…it’s a really nice happy medium. You still have contact, but it has to be giving contact.

I think this might be one of my favortie threads in terms of helpfulness so far :). I feel like I’m in a similar situation with my horse, he’s an 8 y/o warmblood that was started late and is still growing up. Some days I wonder when the Olymipc trials are for 2020 and some days I research the best meat factories. I’ve found that with him, I need to ride a lot of horses often. Every day he can come out very different, and riding different horses makes me adjust to the horse under me and quickly. Also, riding other horses, especially schoolmasters, lets me fix my habits. I tend to get very defensive and heavy when my horse gets hot without me knowing it, and when I try that on a lesson horse let’s just say I don’t do it again.

I’ve also found that XC schooling has really helped my horse. There’s no course on property, we have to go somewhere else, but not only does it keep his mind engaged it’s really good for him. He loves to run and has a huge stride, keeping it packaged up in the jumper ring drives both of us mad. He is always much better and more calm after a solid school where he can open up and just reach out. In the ring, we have distance issues and he flips his head when I touch the reins. On the XC field, he’s adjustable and lstening. He has recently figured out that I’m occasionally right and he can’t just crash through the solid jumps. Once he realized that he got even better about responding to my aids.

Good luck with your boy, he sounds entertaining!

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@Mac123 - Thank you for your words of wisdom! You are totally justifying everything that I have been feeling for quite some time now.

I love how your friend turns something that could come off as something that could ruin your confidence into something that builds you up! I think more people need to take note on that because easily what I have been asked or some things I have been said really tears my confidence down.

Overall I do feel like I am searching for “credit” and affirmation on how hard I’ve worked with him & how far we have come and I don’t think I should be doing that with someone that I am paying. Obviously I know how far we have come, but it would be nice to hear it from the person that you trust and rely on. It would be nice to hear how he is a much tougher horse than he looks and I am doing a great job with him. I guess in a way, I just want to feel that we work as a team. Unfortunately it seems like her team’s easy fix is getting the pro to ride.

I love your correlation with getting a child a tutor. That is wonderful and really helps me feel better about everything.

I think I’m going spend a couple days a week working in a driving rein - these are tricks and tips that I thoroughly enjoy picking up along the way!

Thank you @grandprixer !!!

Seriously this thread has been an amazing help. A ton of suggestions, moral support, and just friends that can relate! I know the forums can get wild sometimes and I was afraid of that happening here but it seems to have given me a ton of clarity.

I do think that taking him out of the ring will be a huge help this spring/summer as it sounds like it is for your boy. I hope that wherever the next step in life takes me, that I will be able to get on multiple horses. I completely agree with you - riding different types of horses keeps you strong and better able to adjust. You don’t develop as many “habits” that you do when riding only one.

Good luck on your journey! Your horse sounds awesome :slight_smile:

Riding a lot of horses helps immensely. I am a former pro turned back ammie, and in my days of sitting on 5-8 horses a day, I was much more adept at not taking things personally and being able to fix what I needed to at a given moment (without obsessing about why the horse was doing a certain thing).

For the last few years, I’ve largely just ridden my mare. 1 horse a day. 1 horse that can make me feel completely.incompetent. It’s been enormously frustrating and my confidence has been a struggle.

What helped me was to think of my 1 mare as 8 different horses. OK, today I’m on her and she feels like a nice, easy equitation horse. Ride her like that. OK tomorrow she feels like a 4 year old unbroke stallion. Ride her like she is that. OK the next day she feels like a spooky, sensitive mare. Ride her like she is one. Because on each day, they are what they feel like.

Always strive for consistency: but define consistency as rideability and response to the aids. Don’t think of consistency as having the same horse every day. Accept the fact that he will be different every day and take it as a blessing that you get to experience many different things while only riding 1 horse. And if you approach it this way, they’ll actually become more consistent-feeling day-to-day because you deal with each day individually and work on simple, consistent ideas each day. You’ll also be adept at making whatever you have underneath you useful. Which is really the best thing, because you’ll be adept at dealing with whatever comes your way. If you’re at a clinic and you have Dr. Jeckel - you’ll be able to transform that into the most rideable Dr. Jeckel ever, because that’s what you’ve done every day.

Don’t try to make the stallion personality feel like the hunter personality. Try to make both the stallion and the hunter rideable and pleasant and practical for what you do.

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One option for your horse might be when he goes all Jeckyl and Hyde on you, get off and lunge the holy living shit out of him. Especially if you’re not sure how to handle it under saddle, and then get back on and continue your ride.

It sounds like to me that there’s a disconnect between you and your trainer. No bueno. If they aren’t able to describe how help you and you aren’t able to dictate exactly what the problem is, it sounds like it’s time for a new trainer or for a pro who may be able to describe it better for you, to ride him. They might be a very reputable show barn, but if they aren’t able to help you with your horse when he acts up, what good is that?

I couldn’t agree more with adjusting to the different personalities of what the young ones bring to the table - I do think that this is half of the fun with them but it is also the frustrating part of them as well. I love all of what you said and is something I try to do but some times when we are going through this phase, we just need reminders and often! :lol: This is where I would love for a trainer to step up and said “hey, we aren’t going to get his normal ‘hunter gelding’ self today, lets just alter our plans to get the best version of himself today”.

Realistically thinking - every day for us is a brand new day. We are not always the same person when we wake up - sometimes we’re happy, sometimes grumpy, sometimes we are plain worn out and don’t want to be bothered. I can’t expect anything less from him.

Great thought - now lets just get it to stick in my brain!

@RMSSport - I completely agree with you! Through talking my situation out with some very helpful people like yourself, I am certainly seeing that maybe the next step for me is having that perfect combination of someone who rides and also is able to communicate what they are doing and what I need to do as well.

Since the horse is coming 6, I finally do feel more comfortable getting off and lunging him finally on those days where he is having a melt down. I always worried about his legs and all the turning. He isn’t done growing and I still want to be careful, but I think it’s better worth my sanity and my life to get off and lunge him.

I also think connecting with him on the lunge line has been helping me ride him. Again, I am able to see him go (I do loveeee watching him go, gosh he is pretty) but I put him in a loose side rein and he has come so far with how he has developed. He also is voice commanded on the lunge (when he chooses to listen) so I feel like I actually get a lot out of lunging him, especially when he’s being an jerk. I feel like I can better tire him out by asking him for a lot of transitions but I’m also doing him a great thing with his development.

I think lunging him is a great idea, and is one that has worked well with my mare when I’m smart enough to use it. My husband comes from the roping & western pleasure world, and he’s been a big advocate of sticking them on a line. His reasoning is you can spend 40 minutes fighting it out with them or you can lunge them for 15, get their brains on you, and then have a great ride. I tend to be stubborn and want to do things a certain way that I perceive to be correct. But at the end of the day, especially with young horses, I think we have to consider “What will get the best possible result today?” That may be starting them on the line every ride, or getting off once it’s clear they need more time on the line, or getting off to get a different bit, or changing the plan.

I have a hard time doing that, because I always think “If I was at a horse show I wouldn’t have that luxury.” But I think if you work with the young horses trying to get the best result in training, as they continue to grow and mature, you can begin being more consistent with what you ask or how you ask for it.

So, personally, I would try 2 weeks of lunging him every time before you ride. Not to run his feet off or get his bucks out (although if he needs to, that’s the perfect time), but to let him loosen up, get focused on you, and establish you as the dominant partner. You may need it for 10 minutes or 20, but maybe just try it out. I bet you’d get a much more focused horse for your rides.

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@Mac123 - I am certainly going to try this!!! I love your husband’s mindset of getting their focus on you. I think a lot of issues with horses can be fixed on the ground.

I am exactly like you & have the same thoughts. Sometimes I am too stubborn for my own good and try to push past it. I do think that some horses can work out whatever issues they are having on the line and then you aren’t involved in it. I feel like my horse is less offended at me when he can warm up on his own honestly.

You guys are totally on to something here…

Wow we have really figured a lot of stuff out!

The transitions don’t tire them out…it gets them thinking and paying attention and encourages relaxation, which is all good for baby brain. I’ve been doing a lot more groundwork with my youngster, and while I don’t like them going round in circles, if you change it up and move around the arena a lot, you can get a good bit accomplished without endless circles. Don’t forget though to give them breaks of complete rest after they do something right to let that marinade in their brains. Just as you’d do a walk break and a neck scratch when riding. You may see him start to lower his head and lick and chew and give long blinks. This is how you should end. They aren’t really tired, even though that’s what it looks like. Just relaxed and with you.

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@IPEsq - thanks! I always try to pay attention to his body language but I don’t think I have ever picked up on the long blinks. I have been told about the chewing and paying attention to his ears… I’ll have to pay attention to the blinks! :slight_smile:

Yep, sideways ears, yawns, blowing out, big sighs…all of that is good. The other day, my horse looked like he was contemplating just laying down in the arena. I waited him out…probably a good 5 minutes at least…until he was done processing whatever he was processing, then I approached him and gave him a rub on the forehead and scratches on the withers before moving him.

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Okay, since there seems to be a lot of interest in this thread and people are learning from each other (which is so fun, so great…and so unlike COTH sometimes!) I’m going to put myself out there with some video of my mare and me through the years. Please be kind, as I’m voluntarily posting some less than flattering footage! I know how helpful I would have found it to see someone dealing with this type of horse, as in my opinion, they can be just as frustrating as rewarding!

A brief history: I got this mare as a coming 5 year old in January of 2011; she was started on the late side and didn’t have too much under her belt when I got her. I got hurt (on her, actually) in the summer of 2011, and she had the better part of a year off spread out over the following 2 years during my various rehabs, finally surgery, and then another lengthy rehab. Her basic tendency was to be very bullish, both on the ground and under saddle. She also had a really bad overflexion problem that took a long, long time to overcome (and you’ll still see if from time to time). She could be incredibly spooky to things outside the ring, and very distracted.

This was her during one of my trial rides in 2011, and was her second grid ever, so green as grass but lots of scope! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqQ7MWbpumA

This is in 2013, at a clinic. This is when we really started to get going, after my couple years of not working her a ton due to being hurt. I had only been jumping for about a month here, after rehabbing from hip surgery. She is going fine, but there’s a lack of consistency with the distances and a lack of confidence in my eye. If she was rideable, I knew where we were. But then there are times were I have no idea where she is. We figured out that she had a tendency to tune out and not really pay attention, so in this time we started really working on getting her to tune in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySVR0YpIV38

This is her in in 2014, where is is going pretty well, but at this point we were still at the mercy of what she would put into it, and it’s still a very careful, manufactured ride. You can see my hesitence to commit to the fence at the long distance on the long approach to the single diagonal, and while it just looks like I got left or didin’t make a decision, what you can’t feel is that she doesn’t give you a confident feeling off the ground at this distance. From this distance she could chip, or every once in a while stop (though not in a dirty way), and there’s no security in the feel of knowing what she’s going to do. If I really rode up to that fence and gave a strong ride, I’d have a freight train on the backside. It’s a tricky dilemma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD8sVDzYsYY

This is at a clinic in 2014, and I think it really highlights all we’ve talked about regarding sitting and pulling vs. being an active participant. I hate this video of me because I look indecisive and at the mercy of what the mare was giving me. Instead of really commanding the ride and creating what I needed to, I was passive. It didn’t feel passive, but it’s a passive ride. @raisethebar I think this may be what your trainer is seeing when she suggested you were scared. In this phase, my mare could still be quite explosive (in fact she got quite naughty during this clinic, at the end when she was tired). She also only trustworthy with the under-ride. If I really got her off my leg, I’d have a freight train that was unrideable. If I really got her off my hand, she’d get overreactive up front. All evasions - but the feel and the history of naughtiness was such that I never wanted to push the envelope. And it’s really hard to SEE all that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnOy2j4-KN0

Oh, God, I can’t believe I’m actually posting these hideous videos!! This was at a show in 2015, and she had been absolutely perfect for 3 days, and then the last day, turned completely unrideable. In our first class, we actually missed an entire line where she just suddenly refused to turn left and ran past it (I don’t have that video anymore, lol, I must have deleted it!). We chip and dipped, she vacillated between being a freight train and then wanting to stop. The first class I was just a shocked passenger…this class I was much better about doing what needed to be done instead of just thinking about how terrible it felt…but still, just to show you how bad it can get - there’s a lot of things I would say if I were coaching myself from the ground here. But in the tack, it felt like there were no options. It looks like I can’t ride for crap, but in reality, it’s very hard to be accurate and precise when there’s no response to the aids, no choice for a distance, nothing other than trying to survive. We did have a vet workup after this show (and at several other points over the years) and what we’ve come up with is that if she’s a little sore or she’s tired or she doesn’t feel like working, she does this (or theme and variations of this). With the vets advice, this is when we really began addressing it as an attitude issue. She has never worked up sore enough to explain her behaviour. It was the vets idea, actually, that it’s more of an attitude problem. She doesn’t want to try if she doesn’t want to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WnNd3fpXXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO-XEROJ1m0

These are from Spring 2016, and you can see us really working through some tougher rides. I’m a much more active participant, doing what needs to be done instead of just pulling or being passive. It took some balls, as she has some impressive, athletic tricks (which somehow I can’t find video of unfortunately). But these rides, though tough and frustrating, are where we started to really make progress. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBRGjxJI59k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fmrSq_NMg4

This was at a clinic in Spring of 2016, and I was very disappointed that I reverted back to being passive. It’s nothing dreadful, per se, but I feel like I just have this tentative, non-involved ride that leaves something to be desired. It looks wishy-washy and indecisive. I still didn’t trust her off the ground, still didn’t trust my eye, still wasn’t creating what I needed and I was letting how she felt define the entirety of my ride. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evEQb6TomPI

Here’s a great comparison. Here I’m doing what I needed to to get the reaction I needed to be soft. The first video isn’t pretty, as I get in her face a bit (she had been grabbing the bit and running through the gymnastic). But the next time through, she listened to my body and voice and I could be soft. I think this is a great example that we HAVE to do what’s necessary. if I did the passive ride from above here, she never would have improved through the gymnastic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEhoLN5k6vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R8XnjaGIv4

And now, in mid summer last year, she’s starting to get really rideable. She’d come out like this most days. You can ses me give some corrections, but she accepts them and softens, and I can be in a much softer (but still active) position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqQXn-5G1vo

Here we’re in the fall of 2016. Jumps are tiny because the ground is hard, but she’s SO much more relaxed and consistent. It’s really starting to come together, and the size of the jump won’t matter (she’s certainly never lacked scope, but rideability). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ewczDL1xZc

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