Trainer communication & terrible 5's (coming 6)? Anyone else?

[raisethebar]

My horse yawns about 5x after every ride… I always thought he was being dramatic — I guess he is taking it all in! That is such a great idea. I didn’t get to lunge before I rode yesterday but he was quiet - too quiet. I couldn’t get him into my hand!!! I think next time, even if he’s that quiet, I’ll have him warm up in the side reins on the lunge first, then have me try to mock it.

I have realized through video that my hands are not at all consistent. My reins get WAY too long… and then I try to “collect him” and push him through the bridle with my hands in my lap and low… Obviously NOT the way I’m supposed to. This horse tricks me!

I seriously need a good dressage trainer to kick my butt, remind me to lift my hands, and keep my reins short and even!!!

[raisethebar]

@Mac123 - thank you SO much for posting these. Hopefully other can see how far you and your mare have come - I certainly can!!! Great job. She is lovely and I have learned a lot from watching you both together & your helpful comments/suggestions/tips/etc.

This thread has been one of the most helpful things in a long time - thanks again for everyone and if anyone has anything to add or if they want to post some videos that would help, I am more than welcome to that!!!

We are all in this together!!!

[snaffled]

I’m really enjoying reading this thread, thanks for starting it and all those that have responded. I have the same issues with my gelding only he is 7 going on 8 this year :o I can totally relate to your frustration of feeling like you are really getting somewhere, starting to think you can rely on the consistency and then BAM you get a ride (or 3) that just feel like you’re running backwards! I don’t mind him having an off day but its hard when he seems to be going through a temporary phase of being spooky and difficult.

I’m always so glad when the monster comes out during one of our lessons because although I used to feel embarrassed, its so helpful to me if we can work on ways of dealing with those moments. Its no help to either of us if he’s perfect in our lessons and then unmanageable while I’m riding by myself. Things that have worked for me have been taking lessons on a more consistent basis, I used to take one every other week and now I do one every week.

My trainer has also gotten on him a few times. Last year we took a step back from jumping at all and just really focused on getting our flatwork down. I don’t regret that decision at all and it wasn’t my trainer that pushed me to do this. I asked her to ride him one day and she talked me through everything that she was doing and feeling. By the end of the ride I decided to put the money I had planned to put into going to a few shows, into more lessons and really get to the bottom of him by taking a step back from jumping. She only rode him on the flat that day but I have never seen him go so well. We didn’t jump from July to about October last year and for us, that made a HUGE difference. For the most part he is a blast to ride and we are actually giving some of the more advanced students at the barn a run for their money in our lessons!!

I’ve also used lunging before I get on if I know he’s going through one of his “phases”, not when he’s just having a bad day but when I’ve had a few bad rides in a row. I won’t try to ride it out then get off and lunge, I just lunge before I get on for as long as he need to get focused. Sometimes that’s 20 min sometimes it 5. Then I get on and since he is already warmed up, we go right to work. I can’t let him look around too much on those days because he will look for things to be spooky about.

We’ve gotten to the point now where even if he is going through a tough period, I can still get some good work out of him by then end of our ride. I may get a little frustrated but I never feel defeated. There were days (before I came to my current barn and trainer) where he would be so unmanageable for me that I would actually get off because I felt unsafe and like I was just making it worse.

We are going through one of his phases right now, so I will be thinking of all the great advice here when I get on tonight!!

[Mac123]

@snaffled How was your ride tonight?!

[raisethebar]

@snaffled thank you for your input ! I guess age doesn’t really matter, huh? :yes: I love this:
I may get a little frustrated but I never feel defeated." That is totally important for working with the green ones/young ones and I think it is sometimes how I feel when I am going through a tough period and need to remember that.

A bad ride doesn’t equal a bad horse.

This whole experience has been a humbling one for me. It really makes me listen to what my horse is telling me. I think he is also getting a little body sore because of all the tough work that I have been asking of him lately. 1) we moved back to our large outdoor which is pretty graded and 2) our rides have been longer because the weather has been so much better.

You also have a great point with lunging them is a change for them to warm up and you can get to work as soon as you get on. It’s a chance for them to warm up on their own and leave us out of it. I always lunge him to train him, never to chase him around me so I really feel like I can get a lot out of lunging. I can relate this to me getting up in the morning and not wanting to talk to anyone before I have my coffee???

Anyone else agree/disagree?

[Mac123]

@raisethebar I agree…I think we typically get on and go straight to work without warming them up properly. It’s another thing my husband noticed that’s really different. He tends to get on and spend 15 minutes at the walk suppling them and stretching them out and getting them really soft in their bodies (and that’s after the line if it’s necessary)…H/J folks tend to get on, walk a lap, and go straight to work.

I was actually going to message you because I was longing my mare last night, and I realized that all the things she does under saddle, she does on the line. So I can work on her engagement, her promptness to the aids, even her straightness, her tendency towards leaning on me (she’ll lay on the lunge line too) all from the ground. It’s such a great tool.

[raisethebar]

@Mac123 now that you say that - I totally see that with my guy too.

Question - I feel like my guy hands on the line a little bit, pretty much only at the canter. He can come in and out really well but at the canter it seems like he hangs on the line and doesn’t stick to the distance of the circle I am asking of him. Almost like he is wanting a bigger circle but obviously he needs to learn to go on the track I am wanting him.

I try to give him quick corrections of a big no but he seems to go right back in pulling. I don’t want to hold him to that circle, I want him to respect it. I do think that this is something that directly corresponds to when I am on his back. How do I get him off hanging on it?

[Mac123]

@raisethebar my mare does the same thing, particularly traveling right because she wants to always carry herself counterbent to the right. It’s a struggle for her to stay soft on the right rein (or the lunge line when traveling right). What I do is bump her off of it. So give a strong tug and then immediately put slack in the line. You’ll probably have to do this 100 times and he will probably lose his balance. But essentially, you want him to carry himself on his own without laying on your hand. So give a strong tug, and then give it back to him with slack, so that he has to carry himself.

I’d also recommend lunging him without sidereins for a while. Make him find his own balance without anything to lean on. Sidereins can work okay, but in my opinion, it’s easy for the horse to just dump onto the front end and lean on the sidereins for support (like he would your hand). Make him find his balance through his hind end and through self-carriage…just a thought.

If I lunge in something, I typically use the Pessoa rig, because it addresses straightness and engagement of the hind end in addition to connecting over the back. I don’t prefer sidereins - at least with my mare. They either make her heavy on the front end (because she can do whatever she wants with her hind end) or she overflexes.

Some people hate the Pessoa rig, but used properly and carefully, I really like it.

[raisethebar]

@Mac123 I have almost purchased the Pessoa Rig oh, 92387493287 times and always backed out of it. I have heard so many wish-washy stories on it (and its expensive) that I’ve never pulled the trigger.

I had my side reins already so I thought I would start with that. Thankfully he never really hangs on them, just on my lunge line when he wants to go on a bigger circle then I’m allowing.

I’ll definitely try this. I also have found that doing transitions helps get him. When he does this a couple times and isn’t listening, I’ll have him trot then bump him back up into the canter. Seems to get him to listen better.

[IPEsq]

@raisethebar

@Mac123 now that you say that - I totally see that with my guy too.

Question - I feel like my guy hands on the line a little bit, pretty much only at the canter. He can come in and out really well but at the canter it seems like he hangs on the line and doesn’t stick to the distance of the circle I am asking of him. Almost like he is wanting a bigger circle but obviously he needs to learn to go on the track I am wanting him.

I try to give him quick corrections of a big no but he seems to go right back in pulling. I don’t want to hold him to that circle, I want him to respect it. I do think that this is something that directly corresponds to when I am on his back. How do I get him off hanging on it?

Learn to double longe with long lines. You can use the outside line for the half halt or support aid like you would riding. With something like Pessoa or side reins, you don’t have that control over the give and take of each side of the bit.

[Scribbler]

@raisethebar

@IPEsq - ^^ this means so much to read after going through all of this. I really think you hit the nail on the head. Man those faces get me too - does your guy tilt his head & stick his nose in your face? Ugh, the worse. It melts my heart every.single.time.

I think eventually I will need to find someone who can partner with me from the ground and on his back. But I think in the meantime I might want to see if I can take some private lessons. See if we can uncover his holes and take some more time to really focus on them. I am looking for a new job in a different area and hoping that something falls into place soon so it would be a great way to solve two problems without burning bridges.

Another thing you brought up is the fact that it’s not that I can’t ride or that I don’t know how to ride a younger - its that I am too close… That really puts it into perspective for me. I struggle with feeling like I need to “prove” myself to my trainer that I am capable of piloting him. I know I am, but in a way through all of her questioning if I’m scared of him & other things she has said recently, she really has me feeling like she has no confidence in me as a rider. That really breaks down the line of communication between me and her. I don’t want to be the person that just hands my reins over to the pro every time there is a hiccup and unfortunately that seems like her idea of a solution when I honestly don’t feel the same way.

You are very lucky that you have had some that made you look like a genius. I need to let go of looking stupid or feeling like people will think I can’t ride - that is the beauty of babies.

Ok, this is huge. And a very good realization from OP.

The only reason to have a coach is to have instruction from someone who is better than you. The only way to benefit from that instruction is to leave your ego in the parking lot and come to the lesson as a student. Or, to use a more current word, arrive coachable.

That means you stop arguing even in your head about what you are being asked to do. And you simply lose the social anxiety.

Remember that the better you ride the more demanding a good coach will be. Coaches save the fake praise and encouragement, you’re a rock star nonsense, for scared newbies.

All top athletes have coaches, all top athletes are coachable, and all top athletes learn to let go of ego and social anxiety and get into the zone. Giving over to a great coach is not a sign of weakness. It’s a sign of your competency and respect.

That said, for this to work you do need a coach that knows more than you. But even the best coach is of no use if you are in a mood to resist and argue.

Also it is true that there are a range of behavior problems that really have to get sorted between the horse and the rider, and instructor can only help so much if the horse has your number on something. In those cases you have to change your number!

[Sueby]

I have a guy that is coming 8 that I got through an…interesting chain of events. He is gorgeous and talent to spare (hunter), but he has his off days, mostly due to his previous situation. He is a hop and spin at the same time kind of spooker and it’s sometimes very hard to stay on. I had him on full training board a couple of months ago and you could clearly tell my coach was beginning to think it was all me creating it because “he’s been awesome, so easy to ride”- until the last week. He threw everything I’ve experienced in my roughly year of owning him at her during that week. It didn’t matter if he saw it before or if someone came in the indoor, he lost it. His most outstanding spook came from his shadow following him. He couldn’t get away from it until he went around the corner, but it came back and chased him again and again! She had to get off that day lol. I mean, how do you help someone through being scared of their own shadow??

When I got him back, she had a new appreciation for what I’ve had to work through with him. She had been off with injuries for quite a few months so didn’t get much saddle time with him at all previous to this. What she saw was from the ground during my lessons. I told her that my thoughts were that on the days I just knew he wasn’t focusing on his job, that my main efforts would be to make sure he didn’t spook and that was all. She said that was an interesting concept and so far, we’ve averted a lot of situations where I would have landed on the ground. In my last lesson he was so good, but she saw “something” about him change and told me that was it, he wasn’t ‘there’ anymore so we were done. The first ride outside this year was awesome, the next day all we did was walk because another rider said he appeared to be levitating at times. I guess my thought behind this concept is, if we can create situations that are as positive as we can make them, he won’t feel like spooking. We are his 3rd home, and he grew up at his first and left when he was 6. The second place was the issue, bad training/riding and little to no turn out took its toll on him mentally.

Sorry for the long winded story, I think that the only way my coach ever would have felt what I did was by getting on him for an extended period. Riding him once a week and he may never have spooked while she rode, but continued to spook on me because I ride him more. So maybe getting someone to ride him for a bit to see what they feel jives with what you’re experiencing?

[raisethebar]

@Sueby - thank you for your story! I am so glad so many people decided to step up and tell me theirs/give great advice! I really think you are on it - having someone else get on him that is talented (even another ammy) to see how he feels and what they suggest might be key for him to really get some of this communication issues solved.

This week is horse show weekend - I will have the pro trainer school him on Wednesday and school him at the horse show in the morning after I warm him up as I despise the schooling ring and this is his first show in almost exactly a year. We got him out a little bit as a coming 5 year old and then let him have time to develop and grow and learn more so that we can actually be competitive now when most things are coming together. I will have some videos to (hopefully) share… As long as they aren’t too embarrassing! :lol:

Through this, I realized I am sometimes thankful for the off days with my horse. Although frustrating, annoying, and tough to ride through/determine when to just simply get off, we don’t realize the power of the really great days that we leave the barn with smiles and the yearning to get back to the barn the next day.

[keatssu]

Without going into detail, my now 8 year old mare went through a terrible phase when she was 6. She wound up going to a trainer that specializes in “problem horses.” My trainer didn’t feel comfortable trying to work through it - she was throwing some scary bucks. Apparently that age can be a time of testing by the young horse. She stayed at the trainer’s for 2 months. The trainer gained the respect of my mare, and her behavior improved greatly. The trainer handed her back over to us and told us to expect the mare to try her old tricks with us, and told us how to deal with it. Sure enough, she did. It took a few rides to work through it, but from there we were able to progress. We have had a few minor issues to work through along the way. When she was about 7 1/2, things really began to fall into place.

She turned 8 in March. She has been so fantastic that we can hardly believe she is the same horse. Good luck with your guy. I just wanted to share some words of encouragement. Maturity is certainly a major factor in some horses. Of course training is crucial, but patience really does pay off with the young horse.

[raisethebar]

Thank you so much @keatssu - your words are certainly helpful & encouraging!!! It does take time and I’m in hit for the long run with this guy. As I said before he is very special so I cannot wait to get through this with him and continue on our success.

Sounds like I need a little bit of tough love for this one. Haha

[snaffled]

@Mac123

@snaffled How was your ride tonight?!

Sorry, been away from the computer, we had a 4 day long weekend here! Thanks for asking though, got lots of riding in

My ride on Thursday was ok, He was looky but I was able to work through it really well and I was happy with it overall (Started thinking maybe his attitude was turning around??)

Did a lesson the next day. He was more difficult then the day before but nothing I haven’t dealt with before. Got him settled into his work and started going over a few jumps, a little pattern starting with a small gymnastic, then I was to come around the long side to a diagonal vertical with a long approach. He ran out to the left which caught me totally off-guard because we were already about a half hour into our ride and by that point he’s usually tried and gotten over any evasive maneuvers. I went right back to that jump, giving it a shorter approach and being very firm that we were not going any other way except over. This time he slammed on the brakes, and dropped his left shoulder, dumping me right on the jump :eek: He’s done the drop shoulder and spin move on me many times before so I was mad at myself that he got me.

Got back on and went right at that jump, he tried to stop again but I made him go over it, halt on landing, turn right around and go over it again. Did that a couple more times, then started over from the grid and he was fine going back to the diagonal jump from the long approach. Then my trainer added a little more to our pattern, starting with the small gymnastic again. I’ve NEVER had an issue with him balking at a grid, he loves them and if ever I’ve had an issue its that he tries to canter into them instead of trotting up. He pulled the drop shoulder and spin move at the first X into the grid and I came off again, landing on the jump :mad: I had never come off on a jump before that day, let alone twice in one ride!!

I didn’t feel defeated but very, very close so I asked my trainer to get on him. I don’t know where the fight was coming from that day, you should have seen the tantrums! I thought he was going to throw himself on the ground and start kicking and pounding his fists like a 2 yr old spoiled child!! Nothing phases my trainer though and she just stays firm and balanced the whole time through his wiggly, head tossing shenanigans. She rode him until he finally gave and took him over a few jumps to confirm he was staying straight and responsive. I got back on and went over a few jumps and then completed the pattern, he was pretty much out of gas by that point so I just did enough for my own state of mind.

I lunged him before I got on for my next 2 rides, the first day he was very unfocused. I had to sit him on his ass a couple times but the next day he was much better and I only had to lunge for about 5 min. I’m hoping this week will be better and that he’s done fighting, if not my next lesson will be a trainer ride again instead.

Its worth mentioning that I have been very stressed out lately with issues outside of my riding. My husband and I are buying our first house and the market here is so crazy we’re having a tough time getting an offer accepted, every house we bid on goes for several thousand more then asking. Pair that with our current landlord wanting us out so he can sell his property, being homeless in the near future is now a very real possibility.

I just wanted to share that sometimes outside influences can sap our confidence!!

[raisethebar]

@snaffled - I can totally relate with your issues regarding outside influences. I am in the middle of job searching in another location so that my SO & I can finally move in together and continue our relationship further. It is soooo extremely stressful with having a FT job already and trying to find time for interviews and taking off days. I find the days where I am simply worn out to reflect how my rides have been going.

Since I correlated the two, I have been lunging him in the beginning - even if he doesn’t “need” it because he’s fresh, I am finding that I need it to watch him go and give him tons of positive affirmation and lots of “good boy”'s because for whatever reason, that puts me in a much better mood. Watching him be great brings me a ton of joy & it turns my ride around… That is another reason for when he has his “moments” and I am feeling frustrated, I will be quicker to get off and lunge him then I was previously. Maybe try this with your guy?

Good luck with your house hunting - the right house will fall into place at the right time! I promise! If it’s meant to be, it will happen. That is exactly what I keep thinking in regards to a new job.

Keep us posted on here!!!

[keatssu]

@raisethebar

Thank you so much @keatssu - your words are certainly helpful & encouraging!!! It does take time and I’m in hit for the long run with this guy. As I said before he is very special so I cannot wait to get through this with him and continue on our success.

Sounds like I need a little bit of tough love for this one. Haha

She did get some tough love. Then we implemented the zero tolerance policy for bad behavior. My trainer and I were both being way too nice to her! Now she just needs little reminders. She found out that being good is easier than being bad…

[Mac123]

@snaffled, sorry to hear you had such a rough lesson! Good for you for having your trainer hop on. Some of my mare’s worst tantrums were far into the ride. Once she thought she was done, or once she thought she should be done working, or once the ride got harder (THIS was a big one!) she would come completely unglued.

You’re right - the external stuff makes a huge difference. I finally got to the point where I’d ask myself what set us up for success. If I’d worked a 12 hour day and it was 96 degrees at 8pm…I’d give the day off. Or I’d lunge her in the rig. If I was irritable and crabby or stressed out, I’d lunge first to help ensure a good ride. If she misbehaved mid-ride and I wasn’t feeling like I was in a mental state to deal with things productively, I’d get off and work her butt of on the ground. And sometimes I flat got off and tried another day - it was better than the disgust I’d feel later for losing my temper.

I think keeping this flexible approach and being mindful of our mental state is really, really important. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and plenty of wars are won over many battles (some of which are lost or end at a draw).

Staying at a 10,000 foot few is really helpful.

[Mac123]

One thing I wanted to add (that was really hard for me) is that it’s not a personal slight if your trainer can get something done on the horse that you can’t or solve something that you were struggling with. They ride for a living, they sit on tons of horses a day - they SHOULD be able to fix what we can’t. And there’s no shame in that.