Hunter/jumper trainer that has a few stalls, 1 personal horse and a couple client horses, at another trainers farm. All horses pay full care board. Owner/trainer has decided to charge a “trainer fee”. Is there a standard monthly amount ?
Nevermind. Misunderstood the question. 
I presume this is the owner/trainer charging the trainer running their business out of the farm a fee in addition to board.
Yeah its pretty normal, but the fees can vary. It might be a set fee, or it might be a percentage of lessons/training. It’s really between them to figure out the specifics.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;9028971]
I presume this is the owner/trainer charging the trainer running their business out of the farm a fee in addition to board.
Yeah its pretty normal, but the fees can vary. It might be a set fee, or it might be a percentage of lessons/training. It’s really between them to figure out the specifics.[/QUOTE]
This.
It seems totally logical to me that the trainer should pay the barn owner something since they are making a living at their barn and have no overhead associated with that living.
I hope the barn is making sure the trainer is fully insured too.
No, there’s no standard monthly amount. Most common is to charge a flat fee per lesson/training session (usually $5-15 per), or a % of the “outside” trainer’s training prices (I’ve seen 10-20%).
Not at all unusual.
Generally BO collects a % of leasing trainer’s lesson fees.
What would you say is an appropriate % range?
10%
Idk. If I am leasing say 5 dry stalls. Say paying 500 per stall should there really be charges about that. Should the 2500 I’m paying farm owner cover everything?
$10 to the barn for every lesson was standard with one trainer I worked with. Each rider paid the trainer the lesson fee, and also paid $10 to the barn. That was easy to understand and track, and the trainer was not handling the money from the students to the barn.
Although I only have 4 or 5 boarders at my private facility there are 3 different professional trainers that come here to coach on a regular basis. I don’t charge the trainers that offer that service to my boarders. As a boarder myself years ago I would expect my monthly boarding fee to cover the use of the facility…whether for a lesson or riding on my own. Perhaps it is a geographical thing…not that common in my area that I know of for the BO to charge the trainers to come to teach a boarder lessons.
Really can’t say if it’s approoriate or not without knowing what the dry stall rate is and how it compares to what the BOs cost per stall is including all operating expenses, mortgage/lease, taxes, insurance, labor, utilities, feed, bedding, manure disposal if applicable, equipment costs, footing, fencing, stuff like jumps and repairs.
Add all that together and divide by the number of stalls to get the actual per stall costs to operate. Generally it exceeds what boarders actually pay in board. That’s made up with lessons, show fees, sales and commissions.
Has to be the only business where some expect or are allowed to conduct business in another businesses’ facility without contributing to that facilities upkeep cost. You do see it in " hobby barns" where the BO has other income and does not rely on the horse business as a sole livelyhood.
I think a lot of people misunderstand this fee. It has nothing to do with the boarders already having paid for facility use within their boarding fee.
The fee is essentially the rent the trainer pays to the owner in exchange for using the facility in order to earn money. Now, some trainers pass that fee on to their riders. But the fee represents the fact that a pro is coming in and making money on someone else’s property for free.
Every business or professional of every nature pays rent. Even the consultant who meets clients at Starbucks has to buy a cup of coffee 
Besides the fact of a pro coming putting additional wear and tear on someone else’s facility, a lesson also very often ties up an arena way more than a hack on one’s own would. At a boarding stable, where others have paid to ride in that same arena and now have to give the lesson the right of way (or at the very least, work around it), a fee is more than fair.
If a trainer is leasing a block of stalls (and providing their own boarding services and care to customers), that could include arena usage too, but most barn owners are going to want a cut of revenue being made on their property. Can’t say I blame them. They took on the risk and pay the mortgage; the renting pro hasn’t.
Quick question to Mac123. If I as a BO, lease out 6 stalls to a professional trainer and they pay me X amount of dollars every month for those stalls (which presumably they would fill with training clients) do you honestly think that I am still entitled to additional money from any income they generate from their training business? Honestly I don’t think that’s fair…I have already been compensated for the use of my facility. How they generate their income off that rental space is not really any of my concern. Nor would I personally expect any additional financial compensation. How would you be able to track it anyway…count how many times every day they gave a lesson to one of their clients?
All trainers pass on the barn fees to their students/clients. Every single one of them. They must in order to make money themselves.
A barn fee for trainers coming in to teach a lesson in NO way compensates the other boarders for having to ride around or defer to the lesson. Having to ride around or defer to the lesson is a reciprocal courtesy among boarders; we want that courtesy when I’m having a lesson, so we give it when others have lessons.
But this isn’t talking about a trainer coming in. This is a trainer leasing a block of stalls and working out of a facility.
The thing is it never really matters what’s normal or expected, because when you own the property you can pretty much demand whatever you like and people either have to agree or leave.
I had a barn owner who wanted to charge a friend of mine for riding my horse…whom I paid board on. Not training or lessoning, just hopping on my horse every once in a while because her horse was no longer sound.
Funnier still was barn owner didn’t want my friend to know she wanted to charge her, wanted me to charge my friend and give her the money.
So instead of doing that I sent the horse to another barn where it was cheaper since I wasn’t really using him anyway, and barn owner lost out on his board. Because I’ll only be manipulated by a maniac so much.
But again, barn owners can pretty much ask for whatever they like, but a smart business owner knows that’s what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Charging a trainer fee can be beneficial to the trainer. The stall fee is a set rate, but this fee is based on service revenue, so if the trainer has a quiet month (such as at the end of show season when the horses get a break, or weather is unsuitable to riding), they aren’t paying as much.
If the trainer is providing services in the same barn as they board their own horses - whatever the arrangement - the real benefit to the barn owner should be keeping their facility full of boarders who want to use the services of the in-house trainer.
It’s always up to the barn owner, of course, what arrangement they want to make with the trainer. But a ‘good’ trainer should be an asset to the barn even greater than the arena and the jumps. In fact, a trainer who doesn’t keep the barn full is not providing the benefit they should be. Not to mention not making the living they should be. The barn owner might well consider replacing them with a different trainer.
Trainers I have been with who leased stalls all declined the option of rolling a “service fee” into the lease if and when it was offered and preferred a percentage of income. So they didn’t get stuck in slow months. There’s typically a CPA or lawyer overseeing both sides of these arrangements…if they run as actual businesses not hobby farms
Some BOs go too far, IMO, and want a cut on buy-sell commissions. But it’s their barn and they can do as they please.
Sometimes there is a third party involved too-if the BO is NOT the actual property owner (who wants a cut) but just leasing then sub leasing to trainer(s). You wonder about some drama? Whole behind the scenes can of worms there most boarders aren’t even aware of. Until it blows up and boarders get caught in the middle.
Its not a bad idea to be very clear on who operates the barn and who actually owns the property before you sign on. Save yourself a lot of angst.
[QUOTE=cherham;9038477]
Quick question to Mac123. If I as a BO, lease out 6 stalls to a professional trainer and they pay me X amount of dollars every month for those stalls (which presumably they would fill with training clients) do you honestly think that I am still entitled to additional money from any income they generate from their training business? Honestly I don’t think that’s fair…I have already been compensated for the use of my facility. How they generate their income off that rental space is not really any of my concern. Nor would I personally expect any additional financial compensation. How would you be able to track it anyway…count how many times every day they gave a lesson to one of their clients?[/QUOTE]
First I have to point out that leasing a block of dry stalls is entirely different than the situation the OP described (and that my post mostly addressed).
Second, it really depends on the scenario. How much was charged for those dry stalls? What did it include? How much of a margin was built into the price? And finally, what kind of barn is it?
Regarding price/margin/what’s included - some people prefer to set up a dry stall rate that simply covers the stall itself. That fee would essentially reflect the dry costs associated with that stall (non-variable costs, like mortgage, utilities, insurance, repairs/maintenance) plus a profit. Let’s say that the dry costs are $75 per stall, and the fee charged to rent the stall was $125, which nets the owner $50 in profit.
Now, those costs factored into the costs of the stall reflected costs specifically relating to the stall. They didn’t cover things like jumps, ring maintenance and equipment, and tying up the arena with lessons. In that case, the barn owner may charge an additional fee, such as a lesson %, to cover the usage of those spaces in which that professional is earning a living. To not charge for that means the professional is making money rent-free, because her $125 per month is going to the stall and the stall only.
Some people might have the same idea in mind, but instead of doing separate fees, they may just say that the stall costs $300 a month. They’re still making money off the rent of the stall and the use of the facility, it’s just all wrapped into one fee.
Now most importantly, what kind of barn is it? Is this a barn where the barn owner also teaches and trains and those 6 stalls she’s leasing out to her friend who lost the lease on her place (this is the real world, seen than happen LOTS) - the barn owner isn’t just charging for the use of the stall and arena - she has to consider her own lost income if she had those 6 stalls filled with clients who were boarding and lessoning with her. Board’s a break-even, so no profit lost there, but 10% of the renting pro’s lessons is WAY less than 100% of the lessons she herself could be teaching. So a fee/%, in this situation (and in my opinion) is more than fair.
Let’s say it’s a barn such as many in Wellington or California where many trainers are leasing blocks of stalls and running their businesses from a large facility. They would typically just charge a single rate for a block of stalls, but you can bet that their “dry stall rate” is a premium for using their facility with no risk to earn a living. In that case, the business model for the barn is to make money off having trainers use the facility. So their fees must take into consideration ALL the costs of the facility, plus a profit, broken down by stall (if they’re smart, anyway).
Very rarely would you ever have a place who has priced their dry stalls to literally only include the price of the stall. Again, they may have factored a flat amount of profit per stall or they may have decided to make a small fee/% off each lesson taught - and each option makes one more or less money depending on the situation (what if the pro teaches 1 lesson per week? 30?).
But this is largely dependent on the barn owner and what their goal/perspective is. Some are in it just as a hobby; some barn owners are actually executive-type business people who are looking to make $$ every chance they can.
I’ve worked for both - and everything in between. I’ve taught and ridden places who didn’t make a dime from me, and taught/ridden other places where they made a cut of what I did. I’m not a pro anymore, but my best friend is, and I’ve seen her through several barns. The most recent two, she paid reduced board on her personal horses (but limited in qty - I think the allowed 2 reduced), her clientele paid board to the barn owner, and then based off her monthly records, she owed x% to the barn owner on all lessons taught. This was done on the honor system as she would simple count her lessons each month and give the barn owner a check for the %. The place before these, she leased the whole facility, so of course didn’t pay a fee for lessons taught. But she also owed that whole rent regardless of whether she was full or half empty; whether she taught all her lessons or 1/2 because of being out sick.
In the end? You pay either way.
