First off, I am not a trainer nor do I ever want to be. I only ride my 2 horses. But I am moving to a barn that jumping is only allowed in lessons unless you have insurance as a trainer. The barn owner, who is a very nice woman and liability savvy, said that is the only way she allows jumping outside of a jumping lesson is if you carry your own liability. I am consulting her insurance person but does anyone else do this? What does it usually run for a trainer…with no students or other peoples horses? Putting this in the hunter/jumper forum but I am an eventer. Not that it matters.
You should get a quote through USEF. I would ballpark it in the $500-800 per year range. That’s a guess, though. There are plenty of barns that have this rule, I imagine for two reasons:
- They have a clientele that includes owners/riders who lack the expertise to safely jump on their own, and/or
- It provides some encouragement to clients who want to jump to take lessons.
I think it’s a fair rule, OTOH there are plenty of amateurs who are perfectly capable of schooling safely/ responsibly over fences.
I’d be interested in the answer to this question too. I am an amateur, but do swing a leg over other horses from time to time. If this kind of insurance was affordable and relatively easy to get, I wonder if it would be worthwhile. Or is an umbrella policy enough for basic liability protection if there’s not a barn policy?
[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8626889]
You should get a quote through USEF. I would ballpark it in the $500-800 per year range. That’s a guess, though. There are plenty of barns that have this rule, I imagine for two reasons:
- They have a clientele that includes owners/riders who lack the expertise to safely jump on their own, and/or
- It provides some encouragement to clients who want to jump to take lessons.
I think it’s a fair rule, OTOH there are plenty of amateurs who are perfectly capable of schooling safely/ responsibly over fences.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I will check USEF. I am awaiting an on-line quote from Equisure.
I shopped around for a liability policy and pretty consistently saw $700 annually for a no-frills basic trainer policy. In my experience most barns have a similar no jumping outside of lessons policy in my area. Personally I felt comfortable as an ammy jumping with out a trainer but I would rather spend my $700 on lessons than on an insurance policy which technically is not covering you for anything 
Just my opinion!
I am not a lawyer nor an insurance person
isnt liability insurance to protect you in case you get sued?
If you are jumping unsupervised, who is going to sue you?
I wonder if what the BO wants is proof of medical and disability insurance
This makes no sense to me…
I’m with hoopoe here. Who will you sue? The liability coverage is designed to protect you in the event you are dragged into a lawsuit from something you did (or didn’t do). But if you fall off jumping outside of a lesson, that wouldn’t be anyone elses fault other than your own. (Provided some whack job isn’t outside the ring throwing flame throwers at you and your horse).
Just my $0.02
Right. And say you did fall off jumping outside of a lesson and your horse ran around and injured someone or broke something…that would be best covered by your personal horse owner liability policy, not a commercial trainer’s policy.
I’m interested to see what Equisure tells you.
The barn owner wants to be certain there’s some insurance to take the hit in the event that a fall off a horse leads to some insurance company coming looking for money. A trainer’s insurance policy would tend to stand in as the “next liable”, I’d think.
Not sure that’s the case here, a few years ago, I met a barn owner who’d “solved” the cost of their Care, Custody and Control policy by requiring each owner to carry liability insurance. I don’t know how that worked, I took it as a sign to keep looking.
In this case, it sounds like the OP’s barn owner wants each boarder to carry liability insurance so that the individual’s liability policy covers an incident as primary and barn owner’s becomes secondary. In theory, that would limit the claims on the barn owner’s policy and could keep her rates lower/ stable. And, if her boarders buy their policies from her agent, she’s may be getting something from the agent for new business referrals.
Actually, I think my post didn’t cover the main issues here.
See, while it’s pretty common for barns to have a rule that people can only jump in lessons, I’ve never heard of a barn requiring someone to carry pro’s insurance if they want to jump in their own. I suspect that your BO is using the insurance more as a manner of determining if someone is a “pro” or not. Because, anyone could say that they are a “pro” level rider.
I really don’t think that pro insurance actually makes sense for this situation. Pro insurance covers liability from teaching and training professionally. The only thing it might cover is that if there were some damages or injuries to others from you training your own horse. However, that coverage could be purchased much more cheaply in the form of a horse owner’s liability policy which would cover the same thing.
So, I would say that your BO is in fact probably NOT very liability savvy. You having a trainer’s policy doesn’t really give her significant protection. She doesn’t want people jumping outside of lessons and doesn’t have a good system in place for how to handle a more experienced adult amateur rider who is reasonably capable of jumping on their own. (Or, she really may not want anyone at all jumping outside of lessons, figuring that no one is going to go out and buy a $600 policy just to do so.)
Sometimes, it’s just easier to jump through an unnecessary hoop rather than irritate someone by pointing out that what they are asking doesn’t make sense. That’s just something you will have to decide on–whether or not this is a hoop you are willing to jump through. Also, will there be more hoops?
Your situation compares somewhat to aahunterjumper’s. CC&C insurance cannot be replaced by requiring boarders to carry liability insurance. The coverages are two different things (though in certain situations there may be some overlap).
I agree here, don’t think this BO wants anybody jumping outside of lessons and just assumes requiring Pro trainer insurance will suffice as an excuse. Bet that’s not written into the boarding contract as a general exception either. If it’s not, BO can still say no and bet she will say no. Beside the liability, jumps are expensive to buy and keep up and the barn depends on lesson income for them and the ring upkeep. Kind of a user fee if you will.
If that were my barn and rule, I still wouldn’t let OP jump unsupervised as the Pro policy does not make anybody a Pro level rider. I wonder if the underwriter will sell the policy to a non Pro anyway, certainly no chance OP will cause injury to a horse she’s paid to ride or have a rider client get hurt in a lesson. That’s what that policy covers.
Find a barn that allows jumping outside of lessons rather then swimming upstream trying to outsmart BO with a loophole if you are seeking a harmonious boarding relatiionship.
Oh, that additional liability mentioned is called Horse Owners liability, it attaches to the mortality coverage and is pretty cheap. Trainer/BOs CC&C coverage does not mean you cannot be included in a lawsuit if your horse gets loose and gets hit by a car causing damage to it and injury to the occupants, hurts somebody or some other oddball accident horses are good at including property destruction or injury.
Costs me $500 a year through Broadstone. I highly recommend them, great company and easy to work with.
Em
I would speak to the BO’s agent, it is possible her insurance does not cover jumping.
BO will be involved in any lawsuit or subrogation no matter what insurance you have or don’t have.
Liability.
Your BO keeps using that word.
I don’t think it means what she thinks it means.
Long time licensed insurance consultant here. BO does not understand that liability insurance covers the insured for damages it causes to a THIRD PARTY. So if you are jumping on your own horse outside of a lesson, there is no liability insurance that will cover you for injuries you may sustain. Health insurance, accident protection, and disability may all kick in but not liability.
I guess if while you were jumping you ran into another horse or fell off and your horse careened toward the barn leaving destruction in his wake, then you would have a claim. You can get individual equine liability policies for such things. Or you can check with your homeowners or renters insurance carrier to see if that policy’s personal liability coverage extends to your horse activities. If it does, then just buy an umbrella liability coverage. Umbrellas are not expensive and they actually cover real liability risk exposure like car accidents and people visiting your home.
I am Ms. Overinsured, but I really think your BO needs an insurance education. She strikes me as not being very liability savvy at all. I never make my boarders carry liability insurance in order to ride their own horse. All non-boarder owned horses are mine and are covered by my commercial general liability policy. If your BO was savvy, she would have a helmet while riding policy and liability releases for everyone to sign who comes to the farm. That would be more effective that asking boarders to buy coverage.
[QUOTE=IronwoodFarm;8632230]
Long time licensed insurance consultant here. BO does not understand that liability insurance covers the insured for damages it causes to a THIRD PARTY…[/QUOTE]
Would it make any difference if the OP got Instructor’s Insurance that named the BO as “Additional Insured”?
No because the OP is not an instructor. She cannot sue herself if she is injured while jumping. Being an additional insured is no benefit if the underlying coverage is void. Instructor’s coverage only comes into play if the insured is teaching a third party. It would cover the risk of the party receiving instruction being hurt. It would cover the risk of some other third party or property belonging to third party being covered. But the OP says she just rides her own horses and does not instruct.
I don’t understand what the BO is trying to risk transfer. The OP may have personal liability coverage in place already or can buy equine liability coverage. It sounds like the BO is trying to limit her liability exposure to a loss caused by a boarder jumping outside of a lesson. It sounds like she is trying to mitigate the risk of a boarder or boarder’s horse being injured while jumping. My thought is that she use waivers for it. Have the boarders waive the right to litigate for claims that involve her ring, jumps, etc. And the bottom line, if she carries a commercial general liability coverage on her farm business, it is likely to cover such a claim even in the face of waivers. At the very least, it would defend the waivers.
These rules are not based on insurance issues. This is a BO issue and she is misinterpreting what insurance can and cannot do for her own purposes. If I were an eventer, I would not board there as jumping seems to be an issue.
[QUOTE=Brynn;8630759]
This makes no sense to me…
I’m with hoopoe here. Who will you sue? The liability coverage is designed to protect you in the event you are dragged into a lawsuit from something you did (or didn’t do). But if you fall off jumping outside of a lesson, that wouldn’t be anyone elses fault other than your own. (Provided some whack job isn’t outside the ring throwing flame throwers at you and your horse).
Just my $0.02 :)[/QUOTE]
It isn’t to keep me from being sued. It’s to keep the barn owner from being sued by saying this rider has their own liability insurance.
But this story has a couple of more twists. I got a quote from Equisure, then called the barn owners insurance lady, who is an avid jumper herself, and asked about what limits I needed as I was quoted $1,000,000/$1,000,000. Here’s this issue. Like Brynn says above. the policy is more to protect me and gives the barn owner no protection. As I spoke to the BO’s insurance person, she said she would talk to the BO, explain there really isn’t a policy for that and possibly have a legal liability agreement signed stating that that the BO is not responsible for any injuries to the rider or horse while jumping may sure the BO better.
We are not jumping 3’6". This horse is trying to learn how not to rush a cross rail. I feel that if in a lesson, the trainer says to sit back and keep your hands quite, then I need to at least work on that prior to the next lesson. I’m 54. Not working on what you covered in one lesson before your next lesson is foreign to me.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8630770]
Right. And say you did fall off jumping outside of a lesson and your horse ran around and injured someone or broke something…that would be best covered by your personal horse owner liability policy, not a commercial trainer’s policy.
I’m interested to see what Equisure tells you.[/QUOTE]
This is the policy that the BO insurance carrier wants me to have.
