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THIS
X1000
IMHO, both parties were wrong.
Errors of Omission.
Client should have asked about commission.
Trainer should have mentioned it.
28 Likes
Option 1: 10% is worth the friendship, you pay, and donāt feel resentment.
Option 2: line up an alternative barn because thereās a strong chance you will be asked/push out and send some variation of
āDear trainer,
Thank you for your thoughts regarding Horse. I am pleased with this purchase. When I began my search we did not have a conversation regarding commission, rates, expectations, etc. so the request for commission caught me very off guard. I value your expertise and time. Between the video review, insight regarding hauling, and x service, I estimate that was X hour of your time and want to compensate you for that. Your lesson rate is $X so I am putting a check in the mail for $X(times 1.5). In the future, when a conversation is crossing from friendship to business, please let me know up front so we can discuss rates and expectations. I am looking forward to horse arriving and settling in your barn.ā
Personally, Iād do option 2 but I never have/will want a friendship style relationship with my trainer. It is a business transaction. If this is someone you are actually eating dinner with on a nightly basis, option 1 may be less upsetting.
26 Likes
What about charging you her hourly lesson rate for the time spent helping you? Its worth asking and seeing if you can negotiate.
Itās such a gray area because neither of you discussed this up front but it should never be assumed that a service will be rendered for free, even to a friend, unless explicitly stated and agreed to by both parties.
I do think you owe her for time and I would try to negotiate ie suggest paying her lesson rate for time servedāif her normal lesson rate is $100 and she spent 5 hours helping you then $500. Like others have said, this may end up being a learning experience, and your trainer may expect more. At the very least itās a learning experience for you, and others, to ALWAYS be proactive about asking about what something will cost for any service even if the person is your friend.
1 Like
$10k for not moving her ass out of a chair?!
Can I have her job?
Pay her 1.5-2x her hourly fee / hour, and not a penny more.
The American system of ātippingā your coach 10% for every horse purchase is crazy. My coach rides all our wild finds for his normal rate. We buy him a bottle of Scotch for Christmas. Pay people their hourly rate and be done.
21 Likes
10% is a usual, normal commission. You are paying for her expertise, professional opinion, using her insurance and shipping contact, and more, and sheās earned. I would happy Gove her 10%.
You would happily hand over 10% of an unknown purchase amount for one conversation and one video? You must have some excess cash in your bank account!
From what I can tell, the OP did not ask the trainer to help her find a horse - thatās really where the commission conversation comes in. And thatās why a 10% or flat fee is acceptable, because it could take a week or 5 months, or a year. Who knows? The trainer might look at and reject 25 horses before the buyer even sits on one. The trainer is the one guiding the purchase - looking at ads, asking friends/colleagues, and reviewing videos, etc.
In this case, it appears that the OP found a horse and asked her trainer to watch the video. A professional service, sure - but not a commission on a purchase. I agree that I would tell the āfriend/trainerā that I was surprised by the conversation about commission - and say that while I appreciate and am willing to pay for her time to view the video and contact the vet, etc., I donāt believe that equates a 10% commission and ask for an hourly rate instead.
20 Likes
Makes sense.
Yep. I found mine online and sent to her. She called and had a conversation. I made all the travel arrangements and paid for flights, overnight hotel stay, car rental, and most meals. Hung out for vetting with me since we did vetting on second day. Flew home. Helped to arrange shipper and was there when horse arrived (at a weird hour).
Didnāt blink an eye at the 10% commission, since it was 2 days of lessons that she had to reschedule, an overnight trip away from her family, and a professional opinion that lead to a purchase.
Did you pay a commission on sold horse? Maybe she felt a bit slighted in that transaction and wanted to be upfront about this one? If it says in your boarding/training contract that I commission is to be paid on all horses bought and sold, then thatās what needs to happen IMO. Either way, you can certainly say that you felt that you did a lot of legwork here and that youāre surprised about the required 10%, but it might sour your relationship, so be prepared for some pushback or sour grapes.
2 Likes
From the other side of this, many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, I was a Pro. I was getting ready to get out the biz, had just a few clients left, and was POOR!
I had a client who wanted an FEI (dressage) schoolmaster. I found one- a teenager who had some interesting front end conformation, but he was sound, and a branded warmblood who had worked up the levels, and competed. I told her how much, and she asked if I could get them down some. I got them down once, and then, telling them what a great home he would have with this lady- who was loaded- got them down a bit more. I told her how much- she wrote the check, and we picked the horse up.
And then, she refused to pay me. She said we had not negotiated it up front, and that was that. I didnāt want the fight, but I sure could have used the money. She moved the horse a short time later- I mean, now she had a fancy horse, compared with the poor soul she came to me with (who ended up gettting donated to the Philly Police).
But, I really believe in Karma.
6 Likes
I am a trainer, and many good points are raised here.
I have to disagree with the concept that you cannot become friends with your trainer. Yes, it can get a bit more complicated that way, but finding people on this planet to be friends with is not an easy task. If I had not become friends with my trainers before I was a pro, I would be minus at least three important friends. Several X clients of mine are still close friends, or just really good friends!
That being said, communication is key whether you are friends or not. And it sounds like everybody dropped the ball here.
Personally, I have a conversation at the beginning of horse shopping. I give people a choice. Either pay me by the hour, or pay me a 10% commission after purchase. I really donāt care which it is. I donāt swap systems halfway through horse hunting though. If hourly, I do charge for looking at videos, negotiating with sellers, looking at vet records and recommending Transport etc. it doesnāt matter who finds the horse. If you would have bought the horse without trainer input, thatās one thing. But if you felt the need to have professional advice, you are partaking of decades of experience.
13 Likes
āHow I want to pay the commission? Well since I didnāt charge you for trailering (etc etc) and you looked at a video over dinner, sent my rads to a vet* and referred me to a haulerā¦ letās call it even!ā
*Iām assuming you paid the vet for looking? I bought a yearling this year, I didnāt need a trainerās help doing so but did want my personal vetās opinion in addition to the PPE vet on the other side of the country (who missed things, intentionally or not who knows), and I had the clinic there send me the rads and I sent them to my vet and paid her consultation fee. I consider my vet a friend, I donāt know if the feeling is mutual but I think it is, but I pay her for professional services. I think is different than showing a video over dinner because it was arranged, eg āhello Dr Vet, Iām vetting a baby, but can you look also?ā Iām pretty sure I told her to charge me, in fact, just to make sure any weird feelings she might have been having about billing/saying she was billing wouldnāt be an issue.
3 Likes
There is a RAMPANT problem where trainers think they are owed a commissions anytime they play any part of the sale or purchase of a horse. Sometimes trainers will think they can insert themselves into the sale of a horse they know of, but were not asked to sell, and then get a cut for making the match.
I have no advice but a hate commissions and I sympathize. I would also not expect a commission from showing a video to a friend. Maybe start the conversation with āBecause I found the horse myself, I didnāt budget for a 10% commission. What do you think is fair to compensate you for the work you did?ā
11 Likes
I have to say that I have never been in a situation where I paid a trainer a commission for buying or selling, and I find it off putting and have heard IRL of it being a cash grab. However, it is also standard practice at a certain level of training or show barn.
Also I expect that like all sales commissions the effort extended is not always commensurate with the reward. You go shopping for Betty and find her unicorn in a week. You go shopping for Veronica who is anxious and fussy and it takes ten months and 5 failed PPEs and 3 road trips and a failed trial lease that lands her in the ER.
Same with any sales situation , real estate for instance where the sales person can represent buyer or seller. Of course in this case only seller pays commission and their agent splits it with the buyers agent and of course a chunk to the office.
Hopefully your easy and difficult clients average out to a reasonable income stream.
2 Likes
[To quote Colonel Brandon in Sense & Sensibility, " I relate this out of an earnest desire to be usefulā¦" and not to beat anyone up]
Could all of us horse people please resolve to stop doing things without discussing the business aspects first??? That goes for trainers, clients, buyers, sellers, everyone. She shouldāve stated her expectations upfront, but you also shouldāve asked, OP.
Thereās a horse dealer down south that Iāve never met but ended up FB friends with through a mutual connection. Breeds numerous foals every year, buys other horses from the sale & flips them. Their sales contracts are apparently poorly executed or non-existent. Hence, dealer gets into a lot of public disputes on FB over things that would generally be considered contractual in nature. This is not by accident. It is by design. It makes them money. Every so often they lose out to a smarter, more committed shyster. But overall? It makes them money.
Now, I know that this isnāt the case here with OP & the trainer. This seems like a case of both making assumptions in an awkward attempt not to offend each other. I bring it up just to remind others that there are many not so nice people in the horse world that love to use the social awkwardness/fear of embarrassment/covert aasumptions of others to their advantage. Be careful.
5 Likes
I find this odd because in my experience you only pay a commission if a trainer helps you sell your horse. If a trainer helps you purchase, at least in my experience, they are paid an hourly rate (or daily, if it requires travel). This is because it can take forever to find a horse, and not always would a 10% commission make up for that amount of time spent. Also, thereās no guarantee that the buyer ever buys a horse!
If a student buys a $15000 horse, and I help them look, but we go through 6 horses to find āthe oneā well I still only make $1500. That might not even work out to $20 an hour for me.
7 Likes
This is why I donāt mix business with pleasure. Much to the dismay of a local trainer who I considered to be a friend, I insisted on paying her when she would do things like walk a course with me if she happened to be at a show; she would try to wave me off and tell me not to worry about paying her, but I would. In cash, right away, so weād always be squared up. And when sheād ask me to trailer her clientās horse, for free, I would politely decline. Good thing, because I discovered that that was her MO: she would do lots of free stuff for people (so nice!) and then try to cash in those favors later, and when she didnāt get what she wanted she would loudly complain to others about how she got screwed by so-and-so. And you never knew whether you were on the black or red side in her debt calculator. I steer far clear of her now. Too bad, sheās a fun personality and a good teacher for advanced coursework, but I donāt like crazy.
6 Likes
As a pro, I hate commissions on buying and selling horses and have never taken one. I do expect to be compensated for expenses and time and discuss that up front. However, if I am brokering a sale either way it is for the betterment of my client and therefore me as their trainer. I donāt expect money for that - I end up getting paid in lessons, show fees, and congratulations for a successful match. That brings in new clients who appreciate not getting fleeced on a regular basis.
Probably why Iām not rich, but money canāt buy integrity and peace of mind.
26 Likes
I totally get all of this. Itās totally reasonable for a client to pay a trainer to find them a horse. I think 10% is usually quite high but occasionally it is low for the hours put in and either way everyone agreed on it upfront.
But there are SO many situations where the person was very casually involved in the sale of a horse and then show up wanting a piece. I get itās a major income stream, but you still have to have been asked to help in order to get paid.
Does your trainer do extra work to ensure that you and your new horse settle in well in the early days (as in, is there more extra effort other than just the purchase?). If not, I would agree with paying an hourly rate and calling it a day if you can. It would have helped your situation if you had offered some sort of payment as thanks before she had to ask.
I am curious what your response was when she first asked for payment?
If your trainer helped you add value to the horse you sold, did you give them any payment or token of thanks when he sold? You probably should have, and they may be a bit surprised that you are cutting them out of income on both the sale and the purchase.
1 Like
Lots of education here and after a nice conversation settled on 5% . I am happy knowing her and new to the jumping world. I marketed and sold my last horse myself and located and contracted the new horse. I had an insurance contact I had used on my last horse as well as a shipper for him but I do feel her expertise of reviewing the video, X-rays, forwarding to the vet , being a sounding board is certainly valuable. I will clarify a consultation fee or percentage in the future and recognize any professional help. I do appreciate the many varied options and weighed the options to come to a just payment and beg forgiveness for ignorance. Thank you all.
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