No reason to apologize. I’m happy the two of you worked it out amicably. Good luck with the new horse!
2 Likes
Agree, services should be paid but the expectation of a blanket commission fee of 10% is ridiculous. This industry isn’t regulated so there is no norm as with real estate commissions, which in that business the person receiving the commission has to be licensed
When I say blanket expectation of % purchase price, I mean some trainers go way out of their way to assist, others pretty much leave it up to the client to do the research, then bless a video or 2 etc, and then maybe accompany them to try the horse.
It won’t change as long as clients/buyers don’t question/challenge the fees they’re paying. I’m still recovering from this trainer expecting $10K for any horse purchase. So a person with a lower end budget has to cough up $10K from that budget for this trainer. For what exactly? I’d want an itemized list of what trainer would be doing to earn that commission.
Frankly as clients/buyers and sellers, maybe clients should start requesting in writing what the professional will do to earn that commission, rather than just an assumption of payment.
In other businesses the commission agreement states the obligations of each party to earn and pay commission.
I’m sorry an expected $10K commission is just sooooo out of my league
11 Likes
10% is the industry standard, in an industry that doesn’t really have standards 
I have friends who charge 15%, and a few others who have a set fee for a range of price points: 15% for $5,000-20,000. 10%% for $20k and above.
As pointed out a few times above, you are not paying exactly for somebody’s minutes of attention. You’re paying for that somebody’s decades of experience funneled towards your minutes. I can’t tell you how many times I looked at 10 seconds of videos for my clients and rejected the horses because they were off behind. We didn’t waste our time and money traveling to see the horse, and paying for a (dismal) PPE. I have a lot more practice looking at videos than most non-pro riders.
You are also paying for the fact that trainers know people in their area. And lots know people from outside their area… If they don’t know anyone personally, they probably can find a common friend. They can call their friends and compare notes on the horse in question, and confer about the suitability for their client.
They can network to find the best PPE vet for their discipline, in an area non-local to them.
I completely agree that there should be a discussion before shopping starts. There shouldn’t be surprises on either end.
4 Likes
In total agreement. My three OTTBs combined don’t add up to $10K. (All gorgeous horses I might add). 
4 Likes
I get what your trainer is trying to do money wise, but what a joke. The people on a budget have the pay the trainer more. That sucks.
6 Likes
Well, if they paid by the hour, they should pay proportionately more - for the same work, the rate goes up as a proportion of horse cost.
10 hours of consultation at $100/hour = $1000…which is 10% of a $10,000 horse, or 20% of a $5000 horse.
I don’t have an issue with this structure as much as I have an issue with expecting it without discussion. Or, alternatively, I’m also good with $100/hour, or whatever the rate is, so long as it’s communicated in advance.
It’s unfair to expect a 10% commission for looking at a single video, regardless of the “decades of experience” funneled in the direction of that 5 minute video.
9 Likes
I understand. It just leaves a bad taste, even if its so they make appropriate $$ for their time. Someone can afford a 10k horse, can only really afford a 8500 horse if their budget is firm.
I’m not discounting the trainer’s expertise or the value of their time.
The whole concept of having a trainer so involved is strange to me, but I ride without one. So the whole kit-n-kaboodle is a foreign world to me.
4 Likes
I’m guessing it takes a lot more work to find a suitable horse in a lower budget
10 Likes
Definitely can be friends, but there needs to be defined lines where you are “client” or “friend”.
We used to go to the Hamptons for the summer and one of our friends ended up buying a home. She decided to charge for rooms, but kept it as “only for friends and friends of friends” and I had to sit her down and talk to her about how she needed to define lines between friends and renters after she fully freaked out and tossed someones groceries into a closet bc in her words “bags don’t belong on tables”. I had to gently explain to her that if she was charging people for the use of her home, that she either needed to define rules or overlook some of their behavior that might not perfectly align with her OCD moments. She thanked me and appreciated it.
Same idea for trainers that consider customers friends. For billing and housekeeping of horse/rider needs, it’s strictly business. Gossip about other boarders and students should be kept at a minimum because that is her/his livelihood. Otherwise, the rest just goes along with the friendship and can just be fun times.
3 Likes
I need to find the video again, but my colleague showed me an introduction video with a story about an engineer. I don’t know how true the story is but it makes a good point.
The Story: After Chernobyl, another nuclear power plant in Russian territory was overheating. In order to prevent another disaster, they flew in an engineer from Germany to solve the problem. He walked immediately downstairs, looked at a few switches for a moment, flipped one, and averted disaster.
When he sent his bill to the Russian government, they requested a detailed invoice because $1M seemed pretty steep for less than an hour on site. He sent a new invoice - $10 for flipping a switch, $999,990 for knowing which switch to flip.
My colleague shared this with me because he felt I was undercharging him for services and wanted me to keep in mind that even though what I was doing for him took only about 10 min, it was the one who knows how to do it, not him.
Likewise, with a trainer, vet, farrier (assuming all are worth their salt), you are not just paying for their time, you are paying for their expertise. There is a wealth of knowledge there that you do not have, whether it is academic training, life experience, connections with other professionals, or other skills - they spent time and money acquiring all that and should be compensated fairly.
All that being said, it should really be addressed before services are rendered. That falls in part on both parties, in my opinion. It sounds like a good compromise was met considering both parties failed to confirm.
I do consider myself friends with my trainer and my vet and one thing that keeps us friends is always being clear about cost and my willingness to always pay.
13 Likes
I totally agree that this should have been discussed up front. Wrong of both sides to not discuss cost before entering into this arrangement.
@Ajierene your post is amazing.
I will add, the OP might feel differently about the commission percentage if the trainer had looked at 25 videos before the OP found the one worth buying. Then their hourly rate for video watching would be pretty darn cheap.
Yes, but even as a pro - would you really charge for 10 minutes of work? I do 10 minutes of “pro” work all the time in my non-work life and don’t think of sending invoices for that. If I did 10 minutes of work every day for someone for 4 weeks - that is totally different though.
I have a friend who is a skilled dog groomer who grooms show dogs, and in my opinion, she often undercharges for grooming because for her - it isn’t hard for her. I tell her that 30 minutes of her time is better than 3 hours of my effort. But giving a dog a show grooming is more than a 10 minute job - she charges for her work, but not enough. However, if she’s at a show - she regularly touches up dogs before they go in the ring, and never charges for that. To her - that’s not a “job”.
But it can be a fuzzy line to draw - she has to be clear what is actual “work”. And sometimes, she gets the short end of the stick - if she wasn’t clear and she should have charged, she usually eats that cost. She doesn’t approach the dog owner after the fact and say “hey, that was a lot more work than I anticipated - you owe me $50.”
If a trainer is a pro - they should have a rate sheet of some kind. And make it clear when work is being done. It’s a simple “ok, yes I will look, but I have to charge you because if I don’t, it’s unfair to my other clients.”
4 Likes
For the one company I consult with, start charging for 15 min of work. That is per our agreed contract. That is regardless of whether or not it is a one off call from a client with a question or part of a bigger project. I charge total hours for the weekly meeting - usually I’m on for about 5 min but it gets added to the monthly invoice under “weekly meeting” liner that just has the total for all the meetings.
For the 10 min of work that I did for that particular colleague, no additional work - he paid me about $300.
It’s worth it to him to pay me well because it means when he calls with a 5 min question at 8pm, I will answer the phone and when he requests a conference call with an account to help them figure something out while I’m in the middle of a 4+ hour drive (traveling for work), I will agree. He will pay me for these items as well but if he did not pay as well, I would be more reluctant to lend my knowledge and expertise.
I the business I am in, you learn quick to charge for your time or people will take advantage of you - intended or not - and you will spend to much time doing free work. Mortgage companies don’t take kindness as payment.
I do agree that it behooves the professional to state services up front but mistakes happen and it behooves both sides to ensure everyone is on the same page.
I’m friends with my mechanic as well and we spend out entire oil change chatting. I know how much oil change costs so I do not discuss that but if he says anything else is needed with my car, my next question is how much and how long (I don’t have another vehicle so I have to wait for work). It isn’t a big deal to either one of us but to expect him to change my air filter for free while changing my oil, to me, is disrespectful of him as a professional.
Likewise, to just expect a free lesson from my trainer (these days usually about 15 min of focusing on one thing, like lead changes) just because she’s there and I’m there and she has nothing obvious going on (riding a horse, teaching a lesson, etc), is also disrespectful of her as a trainer. So I had all these conversations long ago.
I borrow a trailer from a friend and one of the first discussions was whether or not she wanted me to compensate her even though it’s only the trailer, not a truck, that I am borrowing from her.
So, in my opinion, yes, the trainer should have said something but in my opinion some responsibility falls on the individual asking for the service as well.
6 Likes
Only because I think that’s the standard in the horse industry. My triathlon trainer would never charge me for looking at a few sales ads for used bikes, for example.
If I asked him to negotiate on my behalf, well, that’s totally different, or if I asked him to sell my used bike. Or, if I asked him to coach me 1:1 in the pool - again, totally different.
But weighing in on purchasing? No. That’s kind of his job as my trainer, for which I already pay him. I would expect him to tell me when we cross the line into “now you owe me.”
2 Likes
It sounds like you two have established this expectation and are both on the same page. An industry standard for a private lesson ranges from 30-60 minutes. If I’m hacking around and a trainer is also riding and they stop and choose to give me feedback for a few minutes, I’d be caught really off guard if I was then invoiced for a lesson.
It sounds like the OP and trainer spend a lot of casual time together. If over dinner trainer says “any news leads?” And the OP whips out her phone and excitedly shared a two minute video to which the trainer says “so cute! I love that canter. I’d go try him out”, but then wanted a 10% commission I’d be caught off guard too.
7 Likes
I don’t disagree. As you stated, I think industry matters. Also, each individual has their own level.
I think part of the issue with this situation is that the trainer ordinarily gets paid for this service where I imagine your triathalon trainer does not. So, if the horse trainer starts doing this for free, where is the line drawn and how do other clients feel about that? The trainer may lose clients and damage their reputation by the appearance of favoritism. They also may have other clients that they spend more time on that may expect the service free as well.
That’s why I don’t ride other people’s horses for free. My service of riding is paid, in various ways, by a few clients. It sends a bad message to those clients if I start riding someone’s horse for free. I don’t really have any clients anymore - that was something I did more when I was younger - but the policy still stands.
2 Likes
I remember being quite caught off guard by my vet when I asked him to just do a quick eval of my older horse to make sure he was fine still barefoot. I asked it when the vet was there giving shots to all my horses (I think I had 3 at the time) and an assessment of my show horse. I trotted the older horse up 15 ft and back and he said the old guy looked fine.
It was no more than 5min of his time and when I got the bill, was an extra $30 on top of the barn fee, extra mileage fee since I had moved a few miles out of his normal area, fee to assess the show horse, fee for the vaccines.
I was in my early 20’s then and that was a good lesson in never assuming anything is gratis.
As for your second paragraph, I have spent a lot of casual time with my trainer as well. It doesn’t stop me from offering to pay for things or having a discussion beforehand. I learned that it is an important component of keeping a friendship with someone that you also have a professional relationship with.
This is an issue a colleague is going through now - gave to many services for free to someone they consider a friend and now feels taken advantage of. I don’t want my friends to ever feel like I’m taking advantage of them.
1 Like
The right question is: When did buyers, not sellers, start paying commissions?
Looking at how payments are done in other industries, usually where the seller pays one or both sides, I can see why buying clients are surprised by someone on their side of the deal holds out their hand.
The logic behind sellers paying commissions and buyers paying nothing is that the seller just got rich. And he also mentally should have included the traditional 10% commission into his prices-- the asking price and then the one he finally accepted. If two pros are involved and want to split that 10% from the seller, that’s between them. But the buyer pays no commission to her pro because 1. She’s out of money at the moment; and 2. Now that her pro helped her get the right horse, she presumably has the basis for spending lots more money in the future on training, lessons and showing for that horse.
3 Likes
I think that’s a difficult line to draw. While it’s true in Real Estate that the commission for both parties comes from the seller’s coffer, there is an official channel of transfer of ownership involving notaries, lawyers, a bit to-do. Buying and selling horses involves cash or check changings hands and maybe a bill of sale. There is nothing obligating the seller to give any part of the proceeds to the buyer’s agent. The practice of the buyer paying the commission probably arose from some trainers getting burned by the seller.
I understand the confusion by some people, especially when it seems to contradict other industries. However, the standard in the horse industry has been the standard for as long as I can remember so it also isn’t out of line for a trainer, especially when working with a long time client, to think the client knows this.
I also don’t understand why restaurant wait staff can be paid less than minimum wage and expect to make their living on tips but then we are expected to tip other workers that do make minimum wage - like hotel cleaning crews or someone at a hardware store helping load a vehicle (when I worked at a big box store, we were told to refuse tips but that sometimes caused an issue with the customer being a bit offended…so…)
What can I say, life is confusing, adulting is hard…
5 Likes
Perfect. I could not like this more.
