Trainer's Apprentience- UPDATE page 4

[HUS2318]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7607960]
If you weren’t expecting to feed and muck stalls, what exactly are you expecting TO DO as an apprentice?

What do you see your apprenticeship as entailing from your end?[/QUOTE]

When I started with this trainer, I expected to only train horses. Anything that involved with training horses. I was never given the impression that I was to feed or clean stalls. Actually I remember her saying this is a training position only. She asked me one day to clean stalls and feed for her because she was stuck out of town on Easter. It was no problem, I was available and I am more than happy to help her out on anything. I don’t have a problem doing it every once in a while, I just don’t want cleaning stalls to be my job. she had a person who cleaned stalls and fed for her on a daily basis up until she fired her.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=HUS2318;7608270]
Help me understand, why would she rather have me clean stalls then help train? That doesn’t make sense to me since I was hired to only train horses.[/QUOTE]

Because it sounds like she doesn’t have sufficient horses in training to need that help but just lost the stall cleaner so does need THAT help?!

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=HUS2318;7607898]
I have a lease signed on the mare, but the owner of this horse is not the trainer. She is another boarder at the barn. (sorry if I mislead anyone on that). The lease just is a basic form stating I pay x amount monthly for full use of mare when owner will pay all necessary medical, farrier, and boarding fees. It’s a 3 month lease with the option to purchase at the end of the lease, which I am coming to on to the end.[/QUOTE]

If you want the horse, I would buy it now, before bringing up the issues with the trainer because guaranteed if you begin discussing the apprentice situation with the trainer, the horse will either no longer be available or the price will increase exponentially. Never underestimate the ability/willingness of people in the horse world to be vindictive when challenged.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Muggle Mom;7608170]
If you are no longer a junior and riding any of the trainer’s horses, then you should pay for all services (board, horse care, lessons, training) you receive from the trainer to retain your amateur status. [/QUOTE]

Even if OP paid for all services from this trainer, she is still a pro. She gets paid to ride horses.

[Muggle_Mom]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7608470]
Even if OP paid for all services from this trainer, she is still a pro. She gets paid to ride horses.[/QUOTE]

Now I understand that. At the beginning of this thread, she said she was an apprentice and asked what that usually entailed. Now the OP says she’s being paid to train horses.

To me an “apprentice” is an internship or working student sort of relationship, so I was cautioning her about the trickiness of those situations without jeopardizing amateur status.

[Muggle_Mom]

It wasn’t clear to me at the beginning of this thread that you were being paid and that you were already knowledgeable on training horses. I thought you had an apprenticeship which assumes you would need to work in tandem with your trainer. For one day a week, I don’t see how this would be helpful to the trainer without an exchange of some sort of other work on your part.

[SaturdayNightLive]

This is kind of an interesting thread…

So in horse world, to get to ride or “train” a horse, you have to either be a pro that someone is willing to trust to train their horse, or you have to pay for the ride with either labor (working student) or money (everyone else).

It doesn’t sound like the OP was hired as an assistant trainer, it sounds more like a working student situation to me. In which case I would expect some manual labor to be apart of the deal.

I guess all that really matters, though, is the deal you made with your trainer. If you don’t want to do the dirty work, tell her so. She’ll either find someone else to do it and let you go back to whatever it was that you were doing, or she’ll show you the door.

ETA: I do think that anyone who thinks being a pro means never cleaning stalls again is a little deluded. Stall cleaning is part of the whole horse deal, pretty much no matter who you are.

[LouBeans]

What I gathered from the “apprentice” (not a term I’ve heard in the horseworld yet) question along with further info (i.e., originally hired on just to train horses…), I assumed OP’s apprentice situation was more similar to an assistant trainer of some variety. In my experience, stall cleaning isn’t tacked on at random with that position, unless it’s a “we’re short on help, could you pitch in for while?” I would expect a working student position to entail stall cleaning in addition to feeding, turn out, grooming, etc, with no monetary payment.

So as far as what I would expect an “apprentice” to do… I guess in this situation it sounds like some kind of mix of Assistant/Working Student?

Either way, if you don’t want to clean stalls, be up front about that. The whole situation sounds interesting …

[rothmpp]

It might just be me, but I get the impression that English may not be OP’s first language? Perhaps that has brought on some of the confusion regarding the position that OP believed that she was being hired for vs what the trainer thought she was hiring.

OP - it sounds like the situation for the trainer has changed since she hired you. Fewer horses and all. If trainer has the time to ride the horses herself and does not have to pay someone - well, that is a sound financial decision from the trainer. Unless you had a contract guaranteeing a certain amount of rides/$$$ per week, you’re likely not going to get more right now. Maybe trainer is trying to make up for your lost income by having you do stalls? I can almost guarantee that if you are a total pain about not getting as many rides as you would like to trainer, when the number of horses increase, you’re still not going to be getting rides.

As far as the show fees go - if you are not getting services from your trainer, you should not be paying for them. Make a point to schedule with the trainer your schooling time for the next show.

It seems like you have two different relationships with this trainer and the lines are getting blurred. One as a client with the leased horse and her as your instructor. One as a employee/apprentice/working student. Sit down with her, and outline it all so there is no more confusion.

[Zuri]

I wish you well. One of the hardest things we ever learn to do is advocate for ourselves and this sounds like a “good learning experience”, as you will have to do this numerous times over your lifetime.

Getting everything in writing is a wonderful way to establish expectations of both parties. If the trainer only has 2 horses for you to ride, she may not really need you at this time for that. Then you can just be a client and be known for someone she can call on in a pinch that is reliable. That is a valuable commodity in and of itself.

Good luck with college and your mare!

[fordtraktor]

OP is a breed show person, that is why the term is different.i have heard the term apprentice used in the breed show world. However, she is violating the many rules just as much there.

[showidaho]

Careful OP…I believe AQHA requires 5 years showing pro or not showing without receiving payment again before they will reinstate your ammy status. I hope you aren’t showing as an ammy as that is a clear violation of the rules.

[ponysize]

The only thing I’m going to comment on is her charging you day fees, etc at shows when you are receiving nothing in return. I absolutely would not pay them. If you are taking yourself to the show and receiving no coaching, assistance, etc from her whatsoever, DO NOT PAY.

[Janet]

There seem to be two quite separate issues;

1. Her employment as an “apprentice”, the terms of which are whatever the OP and the trainer have agreed to. If she was hired to help train horses that are no longer there, then they need to renegotiate the terms, agreeing whether or not to add feeding and mucking to her duties. (In the H/J, Eventing world, “Working Students” typically do a lot of feeding and mucking)

This is completely separate from the lease/board/ showing questions.

2. The fees charged to boarders attending shows. I have no idea what is usual in breed show barns, but in some h/j show barns, each stall is expected to generate a certain amount of showing income (beyond the board), and so the boarder is charged show fees, coaching fees, day fees, etc, whether or not they need/use them. I have no idea if this is common in the breed show world. This policy would not necessarily change because you are separtely working as an “apprentice” trainer. But if you are being charged coaching fees, you certainly should ask to be provided coaching at the show.

[IPEsq]

I disagree with the charges that Janet describes. When I’m trailering myself to a show, I have had the option to elect whether or not to be on the barn’s care. If not, then I don’t pay those day fees and tack stall split etc. I have never not received coaching, though, so yeah, I would pay the trainer’s out of barn day training fees (in-barn horses aren’t charged as much), and the trainer’s other fees like hotel split. But if I was doing completely DIY and receiving no coaching, I wouldn’t expect to pay my barn’s trainer for anything just because the trainer happened to be at that show too.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;7609403]
However, she is violating the many rules just as much there.[/QUOTE]

Do we know she is violating rules or is there just an assumption that she is showing in amateur-restricted classes? I actually didn’t see the OP say specifically what classes she is showing in, only that she often does better than the trainer.

@ponysize;7609749

The only thing I’m going to comment on is her charging you day fees, etc at shows when you are receiving nothing in return. I absolutely would not pay them. If you are taking yourself to the show and receiving no coaching, assistance, etc from her whatsoever, DO NOT PAY.

I disagree.

If OP is going with the trainer to a show, you pay the fees associated…even if you didn’t get what you would consider your fair amount of attention (that would be a different discussion).

However, if OP is going to a show on her own, and the trainer decides to go as well, no fees should be paid, unless the services are utilized.

[fordtraktor]

That’s true, RugBug, going back it does not say she is showing in the ammy classes so perhaps she is not. I apologize, i should not have assumed otherwise.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;7609835]
I disagree with the charges that Janet describes.[/QUOTE]
I don’t “agree” with them either.

I just know that it is not an uncommon practice in some (VERY show oriented) barns

[Janet]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;7610040]
That’s true, RugBug, going back it does not say she is showing in the ammy classes so perhaps she is not. I apologize, i should not have assumed otherwise.[/QUOTE]

No only did she NOT say she was competing as an amateur, she said she often places ahead of the trainer.

So I assumed she was competng in open(not restricted to amateur) classes.

[ponysize]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7610009]

I disagree.

If OP is going with the trainer to a show, you pay the fees associated…even if you didn’t get what you would consider your fair amount of attention (that would be a different discussion).

However, if OP is going to a show on her own, and the trainer decides to go as well, no fees should be paid, unless the services are utilized.[/QUOTE]

If you had read her comments, the latter scenario was happening and she was still being charged. That’s what I had referenced. If she’s not going “with” the barn or trainer and isn’t being coached, as I had referenced, then no, she shouldn’t be paying anything.