[QUOTE=ponysize;7610141]
If you had read her comments, the latter scenario was happening and she was still being charged. That’s what I had referenced. If she’s not going “with” the barn or trainer and isn’t being coached, as I had referenced, then no, she shouldn’t be paying anything.[/QUOTE]
She’s had BOTH situations happen. In one, she owes, even if no services were received. In the other, the trainer is taking advantage.
I don’t see how she would still have to pay for no services. I mean, hypothetically, let’s say back when I had a trailer I was a pro (I was not). If I had an empty stall when I was going to a show, I would sometimes trailer a friend’s horse who would pay me for hauling costs. But my job was just to do the hauling. Sometimes the other horse would be in my barn at the show, sometimes not. In any event, my job was to get the horse from point A to point B, and that is where my services ended. So, if I was a pro trainer in this hypothetical, then y’all would have me charge the other horse owner all of my usual at-the-show fees and expenses no matter if this owner was doing her own care, meeting another trainer at this show, whatever, because based on the OP’s description of events, either she trailered her own or she had the trainer haul for her but no other services were rendered outside of the hauling. If hauling alone means you are “with” one trainer or another, then I guess a lot of trainers out there offering hauling services would be missing out on a big chunk of income.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;7610302]
I don’t see how she would still have to pay for no services. I mean, hypothetically, let’s say back when I had a trailer I was a pro (I was not). If I had an empty stall when I was going to a show, I would sometimes trailer a friend’s horse who would pay me for hauling costs. But my job was just to do the hauling. Sometimes the other horse would be in my barn at the show, sometimes not. In any event, my job was to get the horse from point A to point B, and that is where my services ended. So, if I was a pro trainer in this hypothetical, then y’all would have me charge the other horse owner all of my usual at-the-show fees and expenses no matter if this owner was doing her own care, meeting another trainer at this show, whatever, because based on the OP’s description of events, either she trailered her own or she had the trainer haul for her but no other services were rendered outside of the hauling. If hauling alone means you are “with” one trainer or another, then I guess a lot of trainers out there offering hauling services would be missing out on a big chunk of income.[/QUOTE]
Your example is not the same situation. The person you hauled is NOT your client. Your are ONLY a hauler, not a trainer to that person.
If your trainer is going to a show and you sign up to go, you are signing up for all the associated fees that trainer charges for the show. If you only get 10 minutes of assistance one day vs. someone else’s 60 minutes in the same day, you stay pay the same amount. If it turns out you don’t need the trainer’s assistance at all, well, you still pay. Just like you pay a split of the grooming stalls, whether you use them or not. (unless, of course, you have an agreement that you will not be using any services and doing all your own work)
If you are going to a show by yourself and your trainer decides to tag along with a horse of their own and they do not assist you in anyway, you are not there as a client and should not have to pay them just because they are there.
I suppose in the OP’s situation, it isn’t clear to me that she is a “client.”
I expected to only train horses. Anything that involved with training horses. I was never given the impression that I was to feed or clean stalls.
Expecting and being under the impression of something coincide with assumption. Never assume something, always clarify, and always put it in writing. My best guess would be that the trainer does not have enough work for you to do. In which case it would’ve been fair of her to speak to you about charging you those show fees before sending bill, but everyone operates differently. I wouldn’t advise anyone to just “run” without speaking to the other person first. Sounds like it might be time to re negotiate, or just negotiate if that wasn’t done in the first place.
I’m wondering what an “apprentice” means to you and this trainer though? It’s not a term I hear often here. Working student and assistant trainer are more common, and both have very different duties which make it much easier to differentiate between the two.
The only time I’ve heard the word “apprentice” used in the horse world is here in Mass, the only state that requires a license for riding instructors. After passing a written test, aspiring instructors must serve a six month “apprenticeship” under a licensed instructor, including 60 or more hours of directly supervised instruction of mounted students. The teaching is unpaid, though the apprentice is often also a barn worker, cleaning stalls, feeding, etc…to earn money, but that has nothing to do with the apprenticeship.
I did that years ago, taught beginners for free with my trainer watching and then cleaned stalls, fed, etc…early mornings and on the weekends to earn money.
Everywhere else, the term is usually “working student” and that job varies as far as duties and compensation goes because it is totally unregulated.
I sat down and talked with the trainer yesterday. I discussed my concerns with the change in our original agreement. From what I understand, because I am now leasing a horse at her facility, I am considered a client. The “apprentice” or “Working Student” position is continuing. She said she is expecting 2 more horses to train starting next month and is just going through a slow patch right now.
Since I am viewed as her client; I cannot seek other training or lessons from any other person. Which makes me a little frustrated because I don’t want lessons from her. (I prefer the lady I have used in the past-the reason I am not doing a working student position with my favorite trainer is that she is not a full time trainer and only offers lessons as a side job, but I believe she is REALLY good!)
As of right now, I am going to continue my working student or apprentice position and reduce the amount of horse shows I will be attending. If I do go to a show and she tags along, I will be sure to schedule a lesson time during the show. (I’m done paying for services I haven’t received). Next year I might search for another apprentice position at another show barn in order to further my education.
Thank you everyone for your input. 
Oh also, in regards to what classes I am showing in for AQHA, they are open classes only.
What exactly are you supposed to be GETTING in exchange for the work you do?!
[QUOTE=vxf111;7612506]
What exactly are you supposed to be GETTING in exchange for the work you do?![/QUOTE]
Money. She’s paid to ride the trainer’s horses, on a per hour basis.
[QUOTE=Coanteen;7612527]
Money. She’s paid to ride the trainer’s horses, on a per hour basis.[/QUOTE]
Then where is the confusion, and why does the OP think she shouldn’t otherwise pay the expenses associated with showing/boarding there?!
OP, you are, in essence, being paid by the hour to do overflow work for the trainer. She can call it whatever she wants, but that is what the arrangement is. Which means when you incur services, you pay. Just like all her other clients.
Doesn’t sound like much of an arrangement to me, especially in light of the trainer apparently not having as much business as was expected-- but if it suits the OP, good for her. I will say, however-- that it doesn’t sound like the OP is learning much. Just working. And if LEARNING is her goal, she needs to pick someone with a bigger business and/or skill set that the OP can actually learn from.
But being asked to pay for services she a) doesn’t want and b) isn’t actually getting. I don’t know how anyone can think that’s acceptable.
As something of an aside, you note that you can’t bring in an outside trainer. Can you trailer out to take lessons (presuming the leased horse does not belong to your “boss”)? Is taking paid lessons from this trainer part of your written lease/boarding agreement? If it isn’t, I surely wouldn’t pay for lessons from this person.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;7612552]
But being asked to pay for services she a) doesn’t want and b) isn’t actually getting. I don’t know how anyone can think that’s acceptable.[/QUOTE]
That’s a totally different question though, separate and apart from being an apprentice/not being an apprentice.
This in a nutshell is what the problem is. She needs the money. I have seen many trainers, mostly up and comers, charge people for services they aren’t receiving or asked for. I had a friend who was required to help pay for the trainers horses’ expenses at shows. Trainer did not want to pay for her share of the splits on her horse. Says all trainers do that.
Another thing that bothers me about the OP’s situation is that the trainer did not discuss the change in status to becomming a client before she started charging OP. She only explained when asked about it. The Trainer’s policies and procedures, along with all charges, should be written down and agreed to with signatures from both parties, at the beginning of the relationship. It is then a binding contractual relationship, which makes life so much easier.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;7612552]
But being asked to pay for services she a) doesn’t want and b) isn’t actually getting. I don’t know how anyone can think that’s acceptable.
As something of an aside, you note that you can’t bring in an outside trainer. Can you trailer out to take lessons (presuming the leased horse does not belong to your “boss”)? Is taking paid lessons from this trainer part of your written lease/boarding agreement? If it isn’t, I surely wouldn’t pay for lessons from this person.[/QUOTE]
I cannot go to any other trainer to recieve lessons, I can only go to her. I will not be paying her for lessons.
I never signed a boarding agreement only a lease saying I had full rights to use said mare while current owner is to pay for all the horses needs. A VERY base lease form.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7612538]
Then where is the confusion, and why does the OP think she shouldn’t otherwise pay the expenses associated with showing/boarding there?!
OP, you are, in essence, being paid by the hour to do overflow work for the trainer. She can call it whatever she wants, but that is what the arrangement is. Which means when you incur services, you pay. Just like all her other clients.
Doesn’t sound like much of an arrangement to me, especially in light of the trainer apparently not having as much business as was expected-- but if it suits the OP, good for her. I will say, however-- that it doesn’t sound like the OP is learning much. Just working. And if LEARNING is her goal, she needs to pick someone with a bigger business and/or skill set that the OP can actually learn from.[/QUOTE]
I never asked for the services of this trainer, only on the occasion hauling. That’s why I dont feel like I should have to pay for training fees, day fees, etc.
I honestly don’t feel as if I am learning much, but I dont want to burn any bridges. I’m planning to leave after this show season ends, that way she can find another helper when things slow down. With her being so close I don’t want to burn the bridge between us in case I need a place to keep my horse. You never know what will happen.
[QUOTE=PonyPenny;7612613]
This in a nutshell is what the problem is. She needs the money. I have seen many trainers, mostly up and comers, charge people for services they aren’t receiving or asked for. I had a friend who was required to help pay for the trainers horses’ expenses at shows. Trainer did not want to pay for her share of the splits on her horse. Says all trainers do that.
Another thing that bothers me about the OP’s situation is that the trainer did not discuss the change in status to becomming a client before she started charging OP. She only explained when asked about it. The Trainer’s policies and procedures, along with all charges, should be written down and agreed to with signatures from both parties, at the beginning of the relationship. It is then a binding contractual relationship, which makes life so much easier.[/QUOTE]
I asked for a written contract on everything and still recieved nothing… this is another reason to me ending this relationship at the end of the show season.
I don’t know how it works regularly in the AQHA world these days… but at a lot of H/J barns if you “go with” the barn you split all the services including the tack stall, day care, grooms, and coaching. If that’s how it generally works in your world, that’s why as a client you’re responsible for part of the splits if you go to a show with the barn. That’s true even if you don’t ask for services or even use them. At least the barns I’m used to, if you go to the show with the barn, you’re in for a split of everything communal and/or offered there including coaching. At the shows you went to, who did the day care for your horse? For the other horses? Where were you stabled, in a block with the rest of the barn of separately? Who wiped your boots before you went in the ring? Who brought hay/grain? Who ordered the shavings? Who was ringside to give you tips (even if you didn’t need/want them)? If the answer to some/all of this is “the trainer and her staff,” that’s why you’re in the splits. I know it’s frustrating not to get as much attention as you feel others get at a show but that doesn’t mean you can be out of the split necessarily.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7613416]
I don’t know how it works regularly in the AQHA world these days… but at a lot of H/J barns if you “go with” the barn you split all the services including the tack stall, day care, grooms, and coaching. If that’s how it generally works in your world, that’s why as a client you’re responsible for part of the splits if you go to a show with the barn. That’s true even if you don’t ask for services or even use them. At least the barns I’m used to, if you go to the show with the barn, you’re in for a split of everything communal and/or offered there including coaching. At the shows you went to, who did the day care for your horse? For the other horses? Where were you stabled, in a block with the rest of the barn of separately? Who wiped your boots before you went in the ring? Who brought hay/grain? Who ordered the shavings? Who was ringside to give you tips (even if you didn’t need/want them)? If the answer to some/all of this is “the trainer and her staff,” that’s why you’re in the splits. I know it’s frustrating not to get as much attention as you feel others get at a show but that doesn’t mean you can be out of the split necessarily.[/QUOTE]
I would understand and be happy to pay the fee if I did recieve any of the benefits but I did not. I fed my horse, purchased shavings, bedded her down, watered, brought my own buckets, lounged, saddled, groomed, my boyfriend or my mom would wipe down my boots and take the wraps out of her tail. I never recieved tips along the ringside because she is in all of my classes. at the most I got was, she looks good. If that’s instruction I’ve been learning wrong all these years.
Well if you were truly independent at the shows and didn’t go “with the barn” then I think you have a legitimate gripe over being asked to pay the splits, OP.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7613915]
Well if you were truly independent at the shows and didn’t go “with the barn” then I think you have a legitimate gripe over being asked to pay the splits, OP.[/QUOTE]
If that is really what happened, then I agree that the OP should bring the situation up with her trainer. If she is paying for services that she doesn’t receive, that isn’t right. If she doesn’t say something what incentive does the trainer have to change? None.
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