Trainers --how much do you want to know about a client's horse before you start?

[Foxglove]

Because I have nothing better to do than research and write (except ride my horses), after my new horse Bob came into my life in Nov '23, I researched him. I REALLY researched him. I know every owner, all his previous situations, training, trainers, etc.

As a professional trainer, do you want to know all that?

Since I bought Bob in Nov '23, we have worked with two trainers --the first didn’t understand what I wanted from Bob (my fault, went to a dressage trainer for hand’s free riding --oops). The second trainer who is a successful reiner trainer and professional rider clarified my expectations to Bob and taught me how to successfully communicate with him.

Because I was paying for their time, I spent pretty much the first secession with each trainer telling them Bob’s life story --hey, my dime, so if I wanted to pay them to listen to his history --that’s my choice. But maybe not necessary?

The first trainer, who in fairness hasn’t trained many horses, but the 4-5 she has trained have done very, very well, didn’t seem much interested in Bob’s past.

The second trainer, the reiner trainer, listened then got her boss over [total expert, judges at WEG) to hear the story a second time. The reiner trainer (love how that rhymes, FYI) used what I told her to explain some of the problems I was having with communication, and to explain some of the “buttons” she found on Bob as she worked with him one-on-one. She also discounted one seller’s contention that Bob had “90 days of barrel racing training,” --she found no indication Bob had ever been trained to run barrels or had ever run a barrel pattern. In subsequent chatting with the previous owner, I mentioned that her agent had written that “90 days barrel training” statement on Bob’s “for sale” entry. She said it wasn’t true, and that he must have gotten Bob mixed up with another horse she was selling at the time.

So my question is: would you rather start with a horse you know nothing about, or would you rather have an owner jot down his history and share that with you?

Asking because Bob is going to “cow camp” for three days in September --the cow horse trainer knows Bob from being at my barn, but has never seen him ridden. Should I share his history or does it matter? Her job is just to see how Bob reacts to cows . . .

[FjordBCRF]

I’m far from a trainer so I’m curious to see what others say. I imagine like anything, it depends. I would think a good overview of the horses background is helpful, but I wouldn’t want to take a full session to debrief unless it’s really necessary. I.E. there are major health limitations or behavioral issues that need to be communicated and understood.

I’m a firm proponent of work with the horse you have today, and sometimes training is out the window on a given day . If Bob sees a cow at cow camp and is super chill, awesome. If he decides they are the devil that day even though he’s seen them before…then it doesn’t really matter his past training is.

Have fun at cow camp!!! We have longhorn on the farm we’re at and Charlie loves them lol. BO hosted a Cow Camp type clinic in June. We just audited it since my guy was out with laminitis but hoping to join next year!

[Scribbler]

Speaking as an ammie.

I never believe anything anyone says about their horse until I see confirmation in action. That goes for overly optimistic coaches, lying scamming sellers, and happily deluded other ammies. I have noticed trainers listen to me and then make up their own minds. I would be totally honest to a trainer what I’ve experienced about a horse (bucks and scoots, balks whatever) but I expect them to take it with a grain of salt.

As far as history, it’s good to know past owners, past competition and scores, past pro training, past accomplishments. But unless you have official scores everything gets very muddy.

You also don’t know how that translates to the now. A horse may have fried his brain or injured himself and never be able to do his main career for you.

It’s true that if you buy a horse well trained in a discipline you don’t understand there will be a learning curve on your part especially the more technical disciplines like reining or dressage.

It’s also true that you can buy a horse that’s actually totally green but just good minded and not realize for a while he knows nothing.

Most people I know are on a budget and either source quality horses that have fallen through the cracks, or quality green horses, or OTTB/OTSB. Rarely do you get any accurate back story, and often no papers.

Also, horses various problems, issues, behavior good and bad, is often very situational so you need to deal with the horse in front of you.

[Demerara_Stables]

@FjordBCRF

a good overview of the horses background is helpful, but I wouldn’t want to take a full session to debrief unless it’s really necessary. I.E. there are major health limitations or behavioral issues that need to be communicated and understood.

Bingo.

I own a horse that came to me as a client’s horse. Client was told by previous owner/breeder that the horse had worked cows. Horse is TERRIFIED of cows. I mean straight up dangerous to sit on, and borderline dangerous to handle when she can see a cow. Not all histories are accurate or give you the information you think you’re getting (maybe she worked cows for one day and hated them or maybe she had a terrible experience trying to learn about them?). I would like enough info to know what buttons the horse has, and if they have any severe aversions, but don’t need the monthly play by play.

[trubandloki]

Also not a trainer, but have been around the block more than a few times. Any trainers I have dealt with are like as described above, a history about something dangerous or limitations due to medical issues is important, otherwise they train the horse they have in front of them that day at that time. It does not matter what the owner says the horse has done or not done in the past. Certainly not a topic that needs a long drawn out introduction.

[luvmyhackney]

When I put my horse in training trainer wanted to know:

Last time ridden consistently
Health issues
Behavior issues
Current vet records
Last time saddle fit
Current diet
Due for next trim date
What skills I wanted him to have and if I had specific goals/behaviors to address

[CBoylen]

Almost nothing. Half the time it doesn’t end up being true or doesn’t relate to my experience. If its had a serious lameness/health issue that I need to watch for, or hasn’t been ridden in the recent past, I would like to know. Otherwise, I like to figure out what it knows by riding it.
Also, if I have not seen anyone actually ride it, I treat it as unstarted. It may breeze through day one and be jumping around the course by day two, but every second of day one is “what do you know about this thing?”, right from putting the saddle on. It’s unbelievable what lies people will tell you about horses, but the horse tells you exactly what it knows.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

It’s not helpful. Maybe a brief 3 sentence back ground but a good trainer rides the horse in front of them- so background doesn’t matter.

Same works in horse sales. You dont always have a full history on a horse and have to ride the horse in front of you…but ammys like “history” like it means something.

[Foxglove]

Thank you for the responses and going forward, I will restrain myself from babbling endlessly about Bob’s life before me!

@VodkaRedbullx2 : Re, “Ammys like history like it means something.” --as an ammy, I like (ok, love) my horse’s history because it helps me complete a mental picture of “who they are.” Ok, maybe almost Disney-esque, but my old hunter was purchased at a camp ground after he tossed a 10 year old and her dad got out a whip and said, “I’m going to teach him not to do that,” --my friend who was camping beside them, said no, you are not, and bought him on the spot. Three years later, she sold him to me when our lovely Morgan died. I traced him and found his first two years were in ND on a ranch, broke at 3, bought for the kid at 4, and then that summer, went to my friend. I’ve had him ever since.

Hugh Jackman was a race horse with six starts, then sold to my daughter at six who did 3 day with him for 10 years. When he blew a knee, he came to me. I used him for dressage for 2 years until he became worse and now he is a lovely pasture ornament.

Will was a ranch horse in AZ for 7 years, given as a gift to his farrier who cut/sorted/ roped with him for 2 years, gave him to a girl friend, who had another man’s baby, she married him (all this on FB) and sent Will to the auction (the good kind --high end ranch horses), and he became mine at 10 years old.

And Bob – specifically bred to be a stud --owner wanted a stud who was a Blue Hancock and threw Blue Hancock. Bob is a bay roan Hancock and threw bay roan --after three tries (pasture breeding), at 5, Bob was gelded and sent to a well-known local trainer (breeder and I chat on FB. I looked up the trainer, quiet impressive fellow, but I doubt he personally broke out Bob --seems to be an older gentleman). Back to the breeder for a short while, she decided she had to have a blue Hancock stud and to buy one, sold Bob through an agent (the one who claimed incorrectly he had barrel racing training). Bought by a barrel racer --she’s pretty successful --again I friended her on FB and she said: “OH, you have Bob! Is he still fat, lazy and slow?” (yep and I love that about him!). She traded him to a “horse flipper” for a more suitable barrel horse. The Flipper (yes, we are FB friends now too) had him 60 days, found out what he could do, made a great video of him doing everything he knew, then sold him sight unseen to my friend who lives 20 min from me. She had him 7 months, then sold him to me less than 24 hours after she decided to sell him (she had him underpriced by a lot to get him off her place --he didn’t work out for her as Bob is herd aggressive and she had him in a 200 x 200 dry lot (with great hay) and three other horses.

And now Bob is mine! The trainer who listened to my long-long-long Bob story, the reiner trainer, said Bob’s herd aggression is likely due to his first five years as a stud pasture breeding mares. She also said that his “excellent ground manners,” are the result of that time too since good ground manners on a stud are encouraged. The reiner trainer said she found Bob did have excellent basic training, but to her, it seemed as if no one rode him “much” since he had that training. I know my friend did mostly ground work with him as she bought him as a husband horse for a husband who rode him twice.

Knowing all that about Bob made me more confident --he hadn’t been sold because he was “bad” or “unsafe.” He just didn’t fit with what the previous owners wanted or needed. It also explained some idiosyncrasies . . .when I bought Bob he was a mess in the trailer --sweating to the point of white foam even on short rides. Turned out, in the trainer’s opinion, Bob hadn’t been hauled very much --and as she predicted, now Bob hauls just fine (I’ve probably hauled him 100 times in 8 months).

Anyway --I agree with you @VodkaRedbullx2 --ammys like history!

[fivestrideline]

I’ll agree (as an ammy) that all you need is a brief explanation of any health issues or known dangers (he pulls back in the cross ties or has a buck in him), and a sentence or two about how much work he’s in now and what you’d like to see when he’s back from camp.

Plenty of owners straight up lie, and many of us are barn-blind as anything. I used to ride a lot of horses for other people, and I wouldn’t retain all that info anyway - I just got on the horse and rode. Besides “can be spooky” and “out of shape, only walk/trot”, I never found the paragraphs of details helpful.

I regularly had conversations with owners about their horses that went like this:
Me: Pookie was great! We worked on transitions and pole work, and cooled out on the trail every day. I also bathed him yesterday and worked on standing at the mounting block. Thanks for the ride!
Owner: oh, Pookie is terrified of the hose and you have to get a leg up on him he’s terrible at the block. He’s also SO spooky on the trails! I’m surprised he was so good!

Happens all the time. This is why trainers generally take everything with a grain of salt - they don’t have time or energy to retain all that info, and the horse will show you what he is. An owner may be entirely correct, don’t get me wrong! But it doesn’t change much. Especially for a three day boot camp, I think a short explanation of his fitness level and any health concerns is plenty.

[Texarkana]

Not a trainer. But…

I strongly believe you need to work with the horse in front of you. Yet at the same time, history is SO important because there are countless reasons why a horse may be acting atypically in a new environment with a new person.

For example: I sent a very nice horse to a trainer friend a few years ago. This trainer friend has a tendency to not listen, so while I gave her a history, it went in one ear and out the other.

Trainer friend determined my horse to be dangerous, unhandled, completely untrained, a blank slate. In need of way more than the “brief refresher/legging up” that I paid for.

This could not be farther from the truth. I have never had a single one of the problems she experienced while the horse was at her farm. I use the horse with beginners, she’s my “husband horse.” She came to me like that from her previous trainer. My friend is the only one to have difficulty with her.

My trainer friend wiped her hands of the horse. We are still friends. Although I have to say, it’s unlikely I’ll ever send a horse to her again. Not because she isn’t talented, but because she couldn’t consider alternative explanations to what she was seeing and essentially blamed it on the animal instead of listening to the owner.

[Scribbler]

It’s true that not all “trainers” are competent and I quietly vet them before I’d send a horse there. I’d also do something like “let’s bring horse for a couple days, see what you think, then if you want to proceed we can do a month” or whatever.

Yes I like having a long anecdotal history on my horse, but both my actually owned horses had early Lost Years.

That anecdotal information isn’t super useful to a trainer though. Also any competent trainer working multiple horses for say three months each is going to not have the bandwidth to remember the details.

I teach writing at the college level. I really don’t take seriously anything students say about their grades in high school or other college courses or the various Test of English as a Foreign Language exams they write for entrance.

What matters is what’s on the page. Some adult students failed high school English 15 years ago but life and maturity has given them good logical.skills and decent grammar and they are amazed how well they do despite being terrified on day one. Some recent grads with fluent English are unmotivated and slid through high school. Some international students studied like demons in environments where they never met a native English speaker IRL (like secondary and tertiary cities in Mainland China) and are super diligent and totally lost. Some students from certain countries pay corrupt TOEFL type exam companies for scores and are over their heads.

Same with horses.

And with riders

[Demerara_Stables]

There also can be a massive variance in how a horse behaves with the owner vs the trainer. Sometimes I don’t want a history because the horse is reacting to something that the rider is anticipating. I had a horse in my barn that I was told could only be trail ridden on a lead. He turned out to be one of the quietest horses I’ve trail ridden, but the previous trainer had a couple bad experiences and then wouldn’t let anyone trail ride him. I just got on and took him out and he was great.

Horses change over time, too. I got one in that I wouldn’t let anyone else handle for the first two months because she presented as an aggressive bully and barely had ground manners (apparently not issues she’d had before). We had up ended her routine and she was out of her comfort zone. Now, 6 months on, she’s one of the sweetest in the barn. A horse might go to training and completely change, which is why it’s so important to be able to read and ride the horse in front of you.

[Aussie_2020]

100% My trainer doesn’t have time to listen to the lengthy, convoluted “history” that some owners want to tell. She tells them the feed and turn out schedule and about what time their horse will be worked in case they want to watch. Everything else she figures out. Your horse gets put on the barns farrier and vet rotation. No muss, no fuss. When you show up for your riding lesson she fills you in on the training if you haven’t been able to come see your horse work.

[candyappy]

I’ve trained all my own riding horses and some for others in the past but not a professional at all.

I would want to know a brief history of what you as the owner have experienced. Any problems you have had and anything dangerous behavior wise the horse may have exhibited.

So many of these issues can be one person specific and due to circumstances but can be something the person training can watch out for. I always rode the horse I had that day ( past slate clean) and you know it always went really well.

[NaturallyHappy]

@candyappy

would want to know a brief history of what you as the owner have experienced. Any problems you have had and anything dangerous behavior wise the horse may have exhibited.

This is important to me. I rode one once for someone who was dishonest about him. I did well w him, but I had the advantage of riding w someone for years who helped me learn great feel. When I got off, the woman who owned him told me how well I did with him. Then she told me the last time he was ridden (and that was by his former trainer) he reared and fell over.

[Scribbler]

Yes. I feel like some ammies or beginning riders in trouble may have extended narratives about the horses deep past but sometimes be reticent about the problems in the here and now. They might have a whole story about how they think Pookie suffered trauma etc but just neglect to mention that they can’t lead him to turnout or he bites them etc.

[GraceLikeRain]

Relevant health and training information is important. The interesting to the owner story of a horses origin, past homes, etc is best saved for friends or maybe down the road with the trainer chatting over dinner and a glass of wine. Most trainers I know are polite enough to listen to the full biography but they aren’t digesting it or finding it of value.

Dobby needs a ground feeder and soaked grain because he has choked before, he is fine in mixed her turnout, he has expectations and understand how to be mannerly for grooming/tacking/vet/farrier, and he is terrified of clippers. I have never ridden him alone on the trails and he can be squirrely when leading a group on a trail. The story of why Dobby is terrified of clippers or the backstory on how Susie overcame his vet fear isn’t really needed.

[AllSport]

Not a trainer but if I were…I think I’d want some of the basic info, esp if there was a known bad experience the horse had in the past. But really just a brief run down, nothing to in-depth I guess. I’ve seen this go both ways with horses I’ve worked with.

One horse had just come from the trainer and I couldn’t figure out for the life of me what the issue was. I couldn’t even rub the saddle with out the horse exploding let alone get on. After weeks of this the owners casually mentioned the horse reared and flipped over multiple times with the trainer who had some harsh methods. THAT I would have liked to have known before agreeing to work with the horse.

The second, I only found out about some dangerous behaviors after the fact once again, aside from some vague “be careful” whispers from people around the barn. In that case, I feel like it was good that I had the vague warnings but not the details so I could kind of work through some of the issues I encountered on my own with out having pre-existing ideas of what might happen. So I guess it kind of depends on the situation too.

[Ajierene]

There is a certain history that is good to know to understand where a horse is coming from. But you have to take that with the horse you have first - so first, listen to the horse, then you can pair it with known history to get a bigger picture and often really just help owners understand their horse better.

Two examples are a pair of horses I helped some owners with. Both well into teenage years - horse A was a school pony before. Owner said he works Horse A in the arena really hard after trail rides because horse rushes home. I hopped on horse, listened to him and he said he was TERRIFIED of out-of-arena. That’s why he rushed home. So we worked on calming techniques and taught them to owner. We also explained to owner that due to school pony life he probably never left the arena. Owner and horse are great partners now and somewhat timid owner has tools that not only help horse but knowing these things help owner’s anxiety, which helps horse stay calm, which helps owner stay calm…etc.

Horse B was a ranch horse type. Get on horse, horse has ATTITUDE at times. Relayed to owner that horse probably worked like 7 or 8 hours a day and one hour a few times a week left him with way to much time on his hooves to plot. It should not be discounted that horse is also the opinionated sort and owner had to learn techniques to build wins - Owner could be a bit hard headed as well so it was great for owner to learn how to not be so hard headed.

Race horses I rode, where history came into play knowing if my former trainer started them or not. If former trainer started them, I know they know leg, they know some dressage type basics, etc.

Race horses are not always taught that, though - sometimes they are just ridable enough that they won’t buck someone off so if I get one fresh off the track, I just assume they don’t know leg/steering/any of the fine points of the general riding horse.

So, it can be helpful but it is also not the be all end all since you have to account for all the history not being said, the personality of the horse, and various other factors.