Trainers with good working student programs?

[Scribbler]

@dressagepony_47

Do you think I would have made this thread if I hadn’t already looked into everything in the last one?

Well, then it would be interesting to know why these didn’t work.

Is it just a matter of bad timing, you couldn’t take a job in December?

Was there in fact no job on offer?

Did you apply and get turned down? If so, why?

The answer to these questions will help focus and narrow the next part of your job search.

The thing to remember is that being a pro is about primarily helping other people ride not riding yourself.

Your own riding gets put on the back burner. This is true for many instructors who need to make a choice between teaching a lesson for cash, putting a training ride on a client’s horse for cash, or working on their own personal horse (which no one is paying you to do).

It is also true when the instructor is getting paid day rates to take students to a low-level or schooling shows and handhold them all weekend, rather than take their own personal horse to a higher rated show. This is especially true for hunter/jumper around here at least, where the lower level shows top out at 3 foot 3. If you are running a robust kid’s lesson program and taking kids to the two foot nines regularly, you will have less chance to get to the 4 or 5 foots on your personal horse.

When you are a working student or an assistant trainer, you are on the pro side of the equation. What you want and need to do personally is always going to have to take a back seat to serving the paying customer. This is true for how you spend your time, and also how much time the main trainer is going to have to spend on you.

You might be in a barn with GP schoolmasters, but your day to day riding might be tuning up a Training Level horse for a client who can’t handle too many buttons.

Also most trainers are their own small business. They need a nest egg to get started and they need to pay themselves a salary out of the business after all expenses are paid. If you want to set up as a trainer, you will need to think how you will finance the startup costs, and whether you can make an income from the work.

Anyhow, I’m not sure what your ultimate goals are.

Do you want to work in the horse industry in any capacity possible, teaching beginner kids lessons at an hourly rate or just grooming at a show barn? Would you be happy if your riding stalled out at the current level but you could make an OK income teaching kids 5 hours a day and mucking stalls for 2?

Or do you really just want to improve your own riding and train your own horse with some help from a good coach?

If the latter, honestly I think getting a good paying job and then paying your way as an amateur rider would be more satisfying.

[Windermere]

What Tamsin said x1000000000. A lot of trainers out there are looking for cheap labor, and they don’t have a stable full of the kinds of horses you’ll need to establish yourself as a dressage trainer (i.e., a talented young horse who will hang around long enough for you to train and move up the levels) - at least, not ones that will be available for the lowly working students.

When I did the math of the hours I was putting in versus what I was getting out of it, it just made zero sense. And one of the trainers I worked for was much more fair and generous than most places! You’ll likely be a lot happier - both in work/life balance, salary, and health - if you consider other options. I saw you have an Equine Science major, which is admittedly a bit limiting, but what about equine massage? Saddle fitting? Equine medicine? There are other options that might be just as fulfilling, without the huge drawbacks that being a trainer has.

It would be helpful to have more specifics about your riding. Who did you work for before (if not their specific name, what were their credentials)? What can you teach a horse? What level have you shown? When I see people say they’re “around 3rd level”, that translates to “has an idea of dressage basics, but haven’t ridden/taught flying changes”. Ambitious and naturally talented but somewhat uneducated dressage riders are a dime a dozen. (This isn’t a criticism - I was one of those working students, and am still uneducated - as I’d define educated as “capable of training a horse to PSG”)

What didn’t work out with the trainers you’ve contacted? What are your expectations in terms of hours, salary, riding opportunities, etc.?

Despite what you might hear, hard work isn’t enough.

[dressagepony_47]

I’ve elaborated on my situation in order to provide some insight and clarity…

I am aware of the realities of the working student lifestyle. I have been a full-time, live-in working student for 3 whole years and I have seen the good, the bad, and the extremely ugly. I did every chore or odd job you could possibly think of, rode everything I could, worked 14+ hour days happily and without complaint. The first barn I worked at, the head trainer was not only verbally abusive, but he never even bothered to learn my name (I was there for a full year). I lived there, did not have my own horse, I was never paid and got lessons only when the opportunity presented itself, they were never promised. It was rough, it was HARD. Cried myself to sleep more than a few times. Was it an unfair situation in my case? Yes. No doubt. The horse world can be a nasty place and hard work does not mean as much as you think it does. However, despite the inconsistent instruction, I stuck it out and I am SO glad I did. I really did make immense progress considering where I had started (ground 0 essentially). I learned so much there, not just with my riding but that job taught me work ethic and that even if you work hard, you still get s*** on. I would never take back that experience for the world though. Because of that job, I went on to have two great WS positions where I got to ride, show, and even clinic with BNTs. I would say I am lucky for finding those positions, but it definitely wasn’t luck or money that got me those opportunities there. Other WS at the same barn did not get the same opportunities that I did. I’m not trying to say I’m the greatest WS/rider out there, but I feel it’s important to elaborate here and the bottom line is that I am not afraid of hard work (actually enjoy it) or failure and this ain’t my first rodeo.

I currently am still a part-time WS, on top of managing my full time 18 credit college schedule and another part time job. I graduate early May, hence the reason for the inability to take on advertised WS jobs at the moment. I don’t have a horse, but I do have health insurance, and I do have money saved up for this. Some family members are willing to support me financially (nobody’s buying me a GP schoolmaster, but they would be more than happy to buy a plane ticket, possibly lease a horse, assist with showing/living expenses if I really needed it, etc).

To those suggesting I take a different route: If the training/riding route really crashes and burns, whatever else I end up doing will be in the horse industry. I really am comfortable with the idea of being a barn manager, groom, etc. as a backup plan. Nobody gets rich being a dressage trainer, but I could never ever sit in an office doing a 9 - 5 and even pretend to be happy. The whole “make your passion your profession and you’ll never work a day in your life” thing really works for me. I really get the appeal of having dressage be your hobby, it would be so much easier to have that financial security. However, after having explored that option in the past, the right answer is clear to me. I don’t have to be the next Charlotte, but if I can manage to train horses well enough that I can support myself then thats all I need. I have no other explanation other than I love doing this.

As for my riding/training: The only long-term experience I’ve had was getting a client’s young horse as a total greenie over a year ago. We did pretty good at schooling shows that summer at training level (64% and 65%) and we are now riding through first level tests. I make a point to not have a ton of lessons on him, but when we need one we do it. This way I’ve been able to gauge how effective I am being on my own which has been an awesome learning opportunity. In summation, I’d cap my training skills at 1st level so far. I feel comfortable riding at 3rd level. I can do a half pass and flying change. I said “about 3rd level” in my OP because I do not have a show record and therefore no “proof”. My trainers have all been silver/gold medalists and have strong ties with the Spanish Riding School style of classical training. Clinicians brought in that I have ridden with are SRS alumni, true masters.

The job search thus far: Most of the ads I have responded to so far essentially came back with a “Sorry we don’t want to wait until May”, which is understandable. Timing is a huge factor. Some of the jobs suggested to me I was under qualified for, like the “rider” jobs and some had already found a WS. I have found 2 potential good ones, one is a real possibility (with a reputation of being good to her WS, letting them ride/show) and the other I’m waiting to hear back. Feel free to PM me if you’re interested in names.

Ideal position would of course include all usual WS duties. Hours and pay take a backseat priority for me. I need housing, riding time, and the possibility to show.

[Scribbler]

Ok with that extra information it sounds like you should make an effort to go pro, and try to find a bigger name trainer to work for!

[RTF]

If I were young, and could do it over… I would seriously look into a working student position through more of a natural horsemanship/starting young horses program. I only say this because if you want to fill a huge need in the industry, there is always a place for trainers that can start horses and fix issues. Maybe it’s not as glamorous as being in a dresssge program with a BNT, but if you combine it down the road with classical dresssge your options would be greater. If you cannot find a great opportunity, get a job, and buy a horse to train with lessons with a good trainers help. There is a huge difference in riding a made horse than from taking one from totally green, never sat on, to third level. The bulk of my experience has come from the horses. Hours and hours of doing the boring stuff, leading, loading, clipping, training how to wear tack, line driving, sitting on horses that have never been sat on, and teaching all of the basics. It’s great to say, I want to be a dressage trainer/ ride the upper levels, but it’s better to learn all of the starter stuff and have a job. You can always move up, I didn’t show in my first rated show until my late 30’s. I hope to show in my first PSG in another year ( on a horse I trained from scratch). I can do problem solving training, know how to correctly start a youngster, can train all of the boring stuff, and have a great ability to teach a person in those areas as well. Teaching a person is another skill set different from training a horse as well. You might need to branch out too and take a great grooming position, less riding, just to make connections to get your next boost in the path. I did three years either as a groom, working student, or taking any horse job I could get. It’s such a long hard road. Not to mention the fact that I am now older dealing with injuries from those days. Money makes it easier, but if there is a will, you can find a way. Buy the book, How Good Riders Get Good, read it, and reread it, and live by it. Good luck!

[dressagepony_47]

@Windermere

It would be helpful to have more specifics about your riding. Who did you work for before (if not their specific name, what were their credentials)? What can you teach a horse? What level have you shown? When I see people say they’re “around 3rd level”, that translates to “has an idea of dressage basics, but haven’t ridden/taught flying changes”. Ambitious and naturally talented but somewhat uneducated dressage riders are a dime a dozen. (This isn’t a criticism - I was one of those working students, and am still uneducated - as I’d define educated as “capable of training a horse to PSG”)

What didn’t work out with the trainers you’ve contacted? What are your expectations in terms of hours, salary, riding opportunities, etc.?

See my previous post

[ladyj79]

There is remarkably little money or benefits or stability in being a groom or a barn manager or a trainer or much of anything in the horse industry unless you are backed by a significant amount of non horse money.

Try being a farrier. You’ll still get injured but the work is more stable and pays better if you are good.

[OverandOnward]

Here is the thing that I wonder if young people ambitious to be a professional trainer realize …

The horse industry is first and foremost a customer-service industry. It also requires considerable financial, employee and time management skills. No matter how gifted a rider.

It is about fulfilling the customer’s needs. That isn’t just a better-performing horse, it is the customer’s sense of satisfaction with their experience, including getting them over challenges, upsets and distractions. If the customer end isn’t successful, the business will go under.

Some hopeful pros seem to think the thing they need most is a “big customer”, a customer that will put horses under them and pay the bills. But being dependent on one large customer is a gigantic risk that brings down many a small business, in many fields. If something happens and the one customer goes away, the business goes under. Happens all the time. May not be the business’s doing, things happen to the customer that have nothing to do with your business that means they can’t continue. It is essential to build a customer base that is structured to succeed over the long term.

Based on the way people describe their WS and groom experiences (worked near these positions but never in one myself), I am not at all sure that those are the best way to become a successful professional UNLESS you have the chance to be close to how the pro manages customers and business - assuming they are successful at both. Customer relations. Barn supply management. Employee management. Banking, money management, financing necessary to grow the business. Not getting into financial holes you can’t get out of.

How does being a WS help you with those things? And then the riding part … how does being a WS help you grow that? I hate to say it, but it sounds to me like most of the time, it doesn’t.

WS does not seem to be a track into successful professional training & coaching. It’s more like cheap dedicated labor for the professional, and not much more than a fast-track to burn-out for the WS.

You have some financial support behind you, but it won’t be there forever. They will expect that at some point you will be out and on your own dime. So put the time you have to the most productive use possible to become a successful riding pro, and if I were your parent I would say ‘no’ to the WS thing. Because it won’t get you where you want to go.

I don’t know the best and most effective way to develop your riding and showing, but your resources may be better spent paying for your riding education than throwing away time in a WS program. Cuz I assume you already clean stalls and tack up horses like a champ. You don’t need 60 hours a week in a barn for months or years, with no riding and no mentorship in running a training business.

• Better experience might be to become a vet tech and spend a couple of years in that field. Learn to truly understand lameness, and how to really wrap a leg, as well as getting a wealth of hands-on treatment experience. And learn prevention!

• Take business classes in basic finance and money management, because to grow a business you have to be able to communicate in financial terms with backers, be they individuals or institutional lenders.

• Learn everything about equine nutrition, from feeding for performance, to managing ulcers, to bringing a skinny horse back to blooming (something many pros need to be able to do often).

• Intern or become an employee doing customer relationship management and marketing, not a retail floor but something like a contract sales or contract management position, for at least a year. Or seminars, or whatever. Frankly this is likely to do you far, far more good to become a long-term successful professional trainer than forking poop into a wheelbarrow and cleaning other people’s tack.

• Not for nothing, learn image management and communications via the web and social media. These days it can make you or break you.

I’ve run into so many young people pursuing a professional riding/training career that don’t make it because they are so fundamentally unprepared for the real work of running such a customer-intense, finance-intense business. Their riding skill doesn’t matter if they can’t run the business of being a pro trainer/rider.

And I’ve run into successful long-term pro trainer/riders who did the vet tech thing, the business college thing, and the intense and ongoing study in CRM (find out what that stands for and learn how to live it).

I’m not sure why people who want to be horse professionals think it is only about the riding. You guys can all ride. That isn’t the question. It’s the everything else about making a living, and thriving, on an independent, non-salary gig that makes or breaks a pro.

[oppsfelldown]

Hey everyone - the OP has a new name and has re-posted. Apparently the answers were not what she was looking for (again).

[ToN_Farm]

@dressagepony_47

Do you think I would have made this thread if I hadn’t already looked into everything in the last one?

Maybe a better thing to do would be to bump up the original thread instead of starting new ones.

[BHTC]

OP- We’re under no obligation to help you here, so if you’d like any type of advice in the horse world, check the snark.

Things to maximize you getting a WS position:

A riding video. A good quality video showing your true riding level. Don’t submit an iphone 10 second clip of you on a pony trotting, you’re a 3rd level rider, I want to see you riding 3rd level on a 3rd level horse.

Be humble. Take the job that’s mucking stalls for BNTs, because you’re not going to walk in the door, especially without your own horse for a trainer to profit from, and get an assistant training position with a BNT because you really want to.

Write a cover letter and resume. Different cover letters for each position. Be personal, yet professional, in telling them why YOU would be the best asset for their team.

Get two letters of recommendation and reference letters from veterinary/farrier.

Volunteer at local events, shows, etc. and scribe for tests/Dressage judges. It’s a phenomenal way to gain insight, and a good thing to put on your horsey resume. Plus, a judge might know a trainer, and the more people you know, the more people you know.

Good luck.

[endlessclimb]

Forrest Hill Farm in Indiana has had several students get their medals while under their watch. A few names on their website that can be contacted, look at their intern page.

They’ve also trained many horses up the levels, from buy ins to homebreds.

[dressagepony_47]

@oppsfelldown

Hey everyone - the OP has a new name and has re-posted. Apparently the answers were not what she was looking for (again).

What are you talking about?

[ToN_Farm]

@dressagepony_47

What are you talking about?

She’s talking about this below. You’ve started two threads with name dressage pony_47 and a third one with name kingandkasssadin

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/dressage/10045007-working-student-opportunities-advice

[rockonxox]

@dressagepony_47

What are you talking about?

Someone else posted a similar topic over in the HJ form – it is also about information on how to find a WS position if you can’t do it right away. Someone is assuming you are the same as that individual. I don’t think they sound similar (different goals and language/tone).

[ladyj79]

@rockonxox

Someone else posted a similar topic over in the HJ form – it is also about information on how to find a WS position if you can’t do it right away. Someone is assuming you are the same as that individual. I don’t think they sound similar (different goals and language/tone).

I think that one you are referencing is actually entirely different and the poster is in a foreign country. The two referenced in this thread are both graduating from college and have been working students for three years already.

[ladyj79]

I considered starting a new thread as this is a common enough question, because I would a like anyone seeking names to understand that those of us with good contacts don’t generally hand those names out to strangers, and we especially don’t hand them out to people who seem in any way…difficult.

[soloudinhere]

Well, if someone wants to be a trainer, I’ve got a barn full of 3yos who need riding.

Its a a long way from medal scores, though.

[dressagepony_47]

Well I can say I feel like most of you were very condescending and critical of me and my situation. I’d like to thank those who were helpful and gave suggestions. To everyone else, I apologize. I know I am a new user on this website. I thought this could be a good resource for me since I don’t have very many “contacts” in the dressage world. Again I apologize for creating this thread and therefore creating problems… whom can I speak to about deleting this thread?

Edit: And also my account?

[MissAriel]

@dressagepony_47

What are you talking about?

The first posts and titles in these two threads are identical, although the poster is different.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/dressage/10045007-working-student-opportunities-advice

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/dressage/9973550-working-student-opportunities-advice