Wanted to get everyone’s experiences and inputs on this practice.
I am the kind of person who sees everything in shades of grey - there isn’t a particular “right” or “wrong” answer, it varies based on the situation. However, in my time in the horse industry, I’ve seen a trend of trainers using client horses for lessons and it really bothers me.
I can see the benefit and I have been a part of the benefit from this practice – it’s a good thing for horses to have multiple riders and still be responsive, I’m a firm believer in horses not being made to be “one person” horses if at all possible. When I started learning the western pleasure, I was allowed to ride another client’s “made” pleasure horse so that I could easily figure out the right cues (kind of like learning on a school master).
This comes up because my horse (who is amazing) was used in a few lessons over the last two weeks without my permission. My trainer is lovely, I’ve been with her for three years – when she was still the assistant at a different barn. I threw a tiny fit about it because to me it’s completely unacceptable to use my horse that I pay a lot of money to keep in full training for a lesson. She’s already apologized and said it won’t happen again - but I think it only happened in the first place because I’m sure it was common practice at her last two employers. A friend of mine that I used as a sounding board seemed to think I was a little nuts for being upset since “it happens all the time”.
The problem comes in when trainers do this without regard for the owners. Which, I think, is surprisingly common. When did this become accepted practice? How would you personally feel if it was your horse? What pros and cons do you see in this practice? Is there any “bar” where it WOULD be acceptable to you - like a credit on your bill, or only approved riders, etc? How do we as a community stop this practice while still making nice horses available to newcomers?
What makes you think that there were only a couple of lessons on your horse? My guess is that there are other times you know nothing about. What happens when your horse gets hurt? I bet you get to pay all of the bills then too. And what if someone gets hurt riding your horse? Or a rider confuses your horse’s training, and bad habits start?
Using your horse for other riders without permission isn’t acceptable, or accepted practice.
I would be livid if someone used my horse for lessons or otherwise, without my EXPRESS and CLEAR permission. Like the poster above stated, vet bill’s, sued by a rider getting hurt, or having bad habits created in your horse.
Is it that the trainers feel doing lessons is part of their training? Regardless she shouldnt use a horse for lessons unless the owner has given permission.
I’m a trainer, and I ASK THE OWNER’S PERMISSION before anyone but the owner or myself rides a horse in training.
I understand that sometimes keeping a training horse in work when the trainer has a busy show schedule is difficult, but the current practice of using junior/other non-pro riders as fill ins without clearing it with the owner first is not honest. It’s better to have a conversation with the owner so they trust your other decisions regarding the well being of their horse.
I know of several circumstances where trainers have (rightfully) lost clients when the client walked into the barn and discovered a junior rider schooling their horse unsupervised, when the trainer was at a big show. The client was read the riot act by the trainer because the junior rider rode “better than most pros”. This may or may not be true, but it misses the important concerns.
Does that rider have liability insurance? No. Are they covered by the trainer’s liability insurance? Only if they are named on the policy (I think)…or if they are an employee (insurance experts could chime in here).
Did the owner contract that rider to train?No.
Does this raise questions about compensation and ammy status of the rider, putting the owner in an uncomfortable position? Yes.
If a horse is used in lessons, the insurance could cover that, depending on the policy. However, this needs to be transparent and cleared with the owner. It can be a win-win situation for all concerned if the horse needs experience with learning to interpret aids from different riders, but permission must be given.
Unfortunately, in just about every capacity that I’ve worked under a BNT or trainer, horses on “training board” are usually ridden by the Working Students (herein called WS) or students of the trainer, with the trainer maybe riding the horse once or twice a week – or sometimes, not at all. The trainer does not always have enough time to ride all the horses in training in one day, so often the workload gets split and delegated to the working students as well, with WS and/or students either getting lessons while the trainer is riding one of the client horses and the WS riding another client horse, or the WS/student is instructed to work on XYZ with client horse while trainer works a different horse.
Killing two birds with one stone in this situation. Trainer gets 2 horses worked in the time-frame it takes one to get worked, and WS gets a lesson (which is usually part of their “payment” for being a barn slave).
Now – there is a difference between training board and training rides - in a situation where a client is paying for training board (AKA you pay $800/month for your horse to be in trainer’s program) I do think it is understandable that some of the rides get delegated to the working students provided they are good riders… but if you are paying for training rides (AKA you pay $65-80 every Tuesday so that Dobbin gets ridden at 10 AM by Resident Trainer) I personally think it is unacceptable that anyone BUT the resident trainer ride the horse.
Would it be acceptable to me to find out my horse on training board was used in lessons? No, not in a non-BNT barn.However, I think since that it is such a common practice, that trainers don’t think there is something wrong with it.
In my experience, trainers assume it is known that the horse will be in work 5-6 days a week, but not ridden by them 5-6 days a week, whereas the owners assume that the horse will be in work 5-6 days a week, ridden exclusively by the trainer. Since neither one realizes the other has a different interpretation of what “training board” is, it usually is not a topic brought up prior to the owner signing the training contract.
Sometimes it is plain dishonesty, but I think the industry as a whole is very skewed with owners having very different expectations than trainers do, and vice versa. Owners aren’t always familiar with the “underbelly” of what training a horse constitutes, and there’s that too.
Personally, knowing the scope and quality of the riding abilities of some WS at BNT barns, there are some BNT barns where I would be perfectly comfortable with this practice… but not too many. Certainly I would not accept it in a regular, non-BNT barn, where the WS is likely to not be as skilled a rider – at that point, I might as well just ride the horse myself and not pay training board for it…
Chalk this up as a “now you know” scenario - it’s very common that a horse in training is used in part of the lesson program. In the future, talk to the trainer and let it be known you want the horse exclusively ridden by the trainer – however, this is not always possible, and you may find you need to find a new trainer.
This practice does happen in plenty of barns. The difference is that most barns either ask the owner before hand or make it clear up front that part of the deal with having a horse in training with them includes the horse being used at the trainers discretion.
It should never be something that an owner was surprised about when they “found out”.
In my first real barn, there were about 5 teachers, so there was no need for students.
at the previous barn, a student rode my horse while I was on vacation and my horse learned to buck under her. Left that barn.
All that said, you either put it your contract only the named trainer rides OR personally interview the WS that will ride and put them in your contract.
Because there are some students who are either better than your trainer or who mesh better than your trainer with your horse.
It is very common for working students, etc. to ride the horses but not common at all to do it without permission.
I am sending s horse off next month and the trainer was clear that she does most rides, but when she is traveling her assistant handles it and went through the assistant’s qualifications. That is OK. Showing up and finding some random person working my horse? Not OK.
I would be LIVID. If a horse is used as a lesson horse then you typically get free board. I would not trust the ethics of someone that did this with out my permission. I might agree if the rider was better than myself otherwise no one rides my horse. How did you find out? They are getting paid twice
Once by you and by the student taking the lesson.
To me, “using my horse in riding lessons” and “having a working student ride my horse” are two different things. If I have my horse in training at a place where there are working students, I fully expect that some of the rides my horse gets will be from working students who are competent riders, following a training program laid out by the head trainer, and under some supervision from a trainer to ensure that they are putting in rides that are beneficial to the horse. That’s perfectly OK with me. However, it is not OK with me if the working student is not skilled enough to put in productive training rides on my horse.
It’s not OK with me to use my horse in a lesson program. I also think it’s a borderline unethical case of double dipping.
It really comes down to clarity, and I just do not understand why so many horse professionals have inability to provide necessary clarity on their programs. When one chooses a training program, is it clear if the training program is strictly rides from trainer, or partly includes lessons/working student rides? It should be, IMO, and it should be specified in your contract.
“Trainer agrees to ride horse five days per week.”
or
“Trainer agrees to ride horse three days per week and have Working Student ride horse two days per week.”
or
“Trainer agrees to ride horse two days per week and provide other sessions three days per week in the form of lunging, ridden by Working Student, or use in lesson with suitable rider.”
I agree that there’s a difference to me between my horse being used for students in lessons, or being ridden by the working student or assistant trainer. Regardless, if I was paying for training, it would still have to be cleared by me. If I’m paying for training, I want to know the TRAINER is riding x times per week and that additional training rides would be done by the approved WS or assistant trainer. Not for lessons for Joe Schmoe paying student.
It’s not hard to figure out if the trainer is really riding your horse if you look at # horses and her schedule. Many barns have way too many horses for the trainer to ride, and if they are showing they are not available for horses at home those days. As others have said, the trainer is best off making it clear that WS or other student may ride some or most of the time as long as owner is ok with that.
In one barn where I boarded the trainer would ask the owner if student X could ride/school the horse, and in some cases show the horse, where student X was a proficient rider. Note the trainer asked and the owner had the option of ‘ok’ or ‘not ok’. And I think that was fine.
When I was traveling and couldn’t ride my horse I personally asked another friend at the barn (talented army) and made my own arrangements to keep my horse in work (trainer rode her once a week but didn’t have the time for much more).
Complete agree I would be livid if another person rode my horse without supervision.
Yeah, I mean - guys I’ve been around the block. I’m not asking for advice here - it’s already been handled. :lol: Trainer is a good friend of mine who I’ve ridden with for years, horse lives with her three hours away because I DO trust her… and SHE is the one who told me about the lessons – which is when I said that it’s unacceptable to me and do not do it again without my permission.
In my case, my horse is the most well trained horse in the barn. She has a lot of young horses, a lot of green horses, and then some haul in lesson people with slightly more advanced horses.
However, I’ve seen this exact scenario numerous times in the last 20+ years of being in different barns and training programs and disciplines. As I mentioned in my OP, I’ve benefited from it and have been on the side of “don’t mention you rode this horse to the owner”. It happens. I’m just curious A) how we get it to stop and B) if, like my friend, other people aren’t as up in arms about it since in many cases this happens in very “full care” programs.
I would be mad. When I was at a lesson and training barn there were very clear rules. If a horse was in for training only the trainer or an approved working student would ride it. Some owners chose to let their horses used in lessons which was great for me since at the time I was a non owner. The owners got a reduced board and had set days that their horses would be used. There were also set days that the horse would not be used in lessons. It was all in a contract that was signed at the beginning.
On another hand when I was at another barn the trainer just used any horse often without telling the owners. Multiple times I overheard owners getting very upset with them because people they hadn’t approved of had ridden their horse. These were people who had allowed one or two people ride their horses in lessons as a personal favor to that person and had no direct contact with the trainer in question. It got to the point that the BM asked the trainer to leave since so many of the boarders were unhappy with it.
I would be extremely pissed off and would probably move my horse if this happened to me. COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. No one should be permitted to ride your horse unless you have given permission in advance.
I expect the working students and probably the advanced riders to ride a horse that is in full training. But I have also told my trainers to use the horse as needed.
100% unacceptable as written. No excuses. The key to my response is the without specific permission. No “customary” or “usual” industry practices can excuse that lapse.
I don’t buy the idea that horses need to be ridden by others to get used to other riders. A well trained horse will accept other riders and figure out what they want as the rider adjusts to the horse. My older horse was eight the first time someone other than myself got on him. Apart from one puzzled/concerned look at me on the ground before they walked on he was perfect for the rider. No one else has had any trouble riding him since - not that it has happened often.
