Many pros manage to instill this in a horse without subjecting the horse to mistakes made by other clients in lessons that have not been okayed by the owner.
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The term “working student” covers everything from great riders apprenticing with a BNT to a barn rat working off lessons. I agree with what has been stated above as long as the working students referenced above are basically talented assistants.
I believe I said if the owner says no, then that’s the final word.
But I think owners should think twice and then again before vetoing the practice. I’m assuming, of course, that the owner trusts the trainer. If so, and the trainer thinks having students ride the horse is a beneficial part of the horse’s training, and the trainer is supervising the student rider - then I don’t see the problem.
I’ve seen far more horses hurt by the owner’s overestimation of her own skill level and overreliance on the advice of people on the internet than by student riders in a supervised lesson program.
Now, if as many of the posts suggest, the owner believes the trainer is using the horse in lessons in order to take advantage of the owner - the solution is to find a new trainer altogether, not simply to forbid the horse’s use in lessons.
It can be valuable, which I admitted in my OP.
In my particular case, the horse was being used in lessons for a specific event. In addition to liability concerns, I vetoed because, while I am a world champion in the event with my previous horse, this horse and I have had trouble for the last couple of years with it. I don’t need some other amateur allowing him to find holes - I have enough already and I want a pro working with him exclusively until we can get it together as a team.
My trainer apologized and said it wouldn’t happen again. I’m sure she meant well and, yes, it can be valuable. But not without my permission and a discussion. :yes:
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When you said “my trainer is lovely,” I guess you meant physically, because what she did to you and your horse was certainly not lovely in any way.
I guess you mean “lovely” in the physical sense, because what she did to your horse and you was not lovely in any way.
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^^^^^^^^ totally agree…trainer was WRONG enough based on your original post…your most recent post makes her HELLA WRONG. How do you stop it?? All I can think of is that horse stays closer so owner sees what is going on, owner puts in written contract nobody rides/lunges/trains horse with out owner approval/permission period. So trainer and assistants/employees would be implied OK with right to veto any employees reserved and regular lessons no way unless student was specifically given approval by owner.
A risky situation/ slippery slope * regardless of the individuals’ best intentions and communication skills … best to outline ALL aspects in [B]writing • and revisit contract often • if one is brave enough to entered into such an arrangement • IMHO
I always say [/B]“NO” !
The only way to stop it is to not tolerate it. I am fine with a trainer discussing the idea of another student riding my horse and, depending on the situation, might agree to it. However, the trainer should ask permission and then ultimately, not allow anything that the owner doesn’t agree to. Frankly, it’s unethical to do otherwise. It happens because the trainer becomes dug in to knowing more about horses than the owner. While the trainer knows more about horses and training them, the owner is paying for the horse and understands his or her preferences better.
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It is totally unacceptable that she didn’t ask you for permission. That is totally over the line. You have absolutely every right to be furious. I definitely would be.
That being said… Using boarders horses, in general, is OK with me as long as EVERYONE is on the same page. I’ve seen many situations where it is useful to do this:
The horse owner is incompetent. There is a woman at my barn who doesn’t know how to ride and refuses instruction. The BO uses her horse in lessons to keep him from becoming feral
The horse owner is unable to ride regularly. People who travel for their job, are going to school, are injured, or are simply unable to make it out aren’t able to keep their horses in good condition. Using their horses for lessons can keep the horses in shape and sharp.
The horse owner is down on their luck monetarily. My barn pays the owner or gives a discount off the board for each lesson their horse is used for. So it can be a way to keep your horse or at least relieve some of the financial stress of horse ownership.
Keeps board prices down overall. Keeping a string of lesson horses is expensive and a money pit for the BO. By being able to collect board on every stall, it can help limit the price of board and lessons.
I agree with the general consensus that it’s not ok without permission.
In my case, I specifically asked my trainer to get other people on my horse (and he agreed with me on reasons why) because she is the type to be upset at a change in aids or expectations, and tends to only care about the people she knows. Getting more people on her when she was green helped ensure she would learn to handle differences in riding. Now I feel like just about anyone can ride her - they’ll just get different results depending on ability.
My trainer has blanket permission to use my horses if necessary. I trust his judgment on who he puts on my horses, and it’s not a regular thing. He recently mentioned that he has a client coming from a hunter background who doesn’t quite “get” what she’s looking for in a collected canter. At some point he’ll put her on my gelding who has an amazing collected canter so she can feel it, maybe ride some pirouettes, etc. He told me about this, didn’t ask, because he has blanket permission. We plan out when I’ll be riding ahead of time, so of course he doesn’t use my horses and prevent me from riding. He also has two lesson horses as well as some of his own he can put people on, so it’s not a regular thing for him to use my horses.
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Permission is everything in these situations.
As a currently horseless amateur rider who has largely classed-out of the standard lesson horse options unless I go to a Big Barn with schoomasters available, being able to ride client horses is an invaluable resource to me. That said, it’s always a discussion that happens between owners, their(/my) trainer, and I. It may be that they go on vacation and I catch wind of it. They want to schedule a training ride or two (or three) but don’t want to pay for 7-14 days of training rides. I’ll talk to instructor & owner, see if I can get a lesson or two, and then free ride on the days the trainer isn’t putting a training ride on. It’s a system that has worked out excellently for us, largely because of the communication, and trust between all parties.
Having a trainer take a client horse and use it to give a lesson with zero communication is absolutely unacceptable, regardless of the situation.
I can see where it is beneficial (to trainer, having a horse that might be good for a rider that needs to have a ride on a horse with more buttons to “feel” something or like in my situation, for a rider who is looking to develop skills that are advanced beyond what the standard school horse can do; to riders, having access to different types of horses with various levels of training; to owner, if they can pay less for board/training/whatnot if horse is used in a lesson instead of in training/training rides) but again, this is all completely contingent on permission and agreement of all parties.
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When I learned to ride “English”, an owner had a deal with the barn owner/trainer to use her horse in exchange for reduced board. The horse was a Bit Much for the owner’s 11-year old son, and being used was good for both horse and the young rider. I was lucky enough to get to ride that mare in lessons and, occasionally, out of lessons. Eventually, that owner offered that 10-year old mare to me, and I bought her.
For the next 26 years, other than my cousin who rode her (maybe) 5 times, I was her sole rider. There never was a “need” for MY horse to learn how to perform with other riders. If my mare needed to learn how to “take a joke”, she had plenty of opportunities with me.
I would have been FURIOUS if I had ever caught anyone riding or using her without my knowledge and permission.
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I have been on the both ends of this situation I hated it. One the owner didn’t want me to ride the horse, but the trainer wanted me to. I felt caught in the middle. In the end the trainer turned on me and made it sound like I was riding the owners horse without her knowledge.
Second I told a trainer that she could use my mare, but when someone came off of her she immediately had issue with being mounted. She seems more nervous in English tack so I asked that she be ridden only in western tack until the problem was figured out. I walked in to see the horse in English tack and the same girl coming off over her again. I put an end to that . If that girl got hurt, I didn’t want to be liable.
Now I prefer that nobody handles my horse but me.
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I was a boarder. No training. No discount arrangement. No permission of any kind for anyone. Found out my horse was being used in lessons. I moved my horses out.
Absolutely. Owners often get tied up emotionally thinking the trainer is their BFF, is wonderful, is like a Mother to them, has done so much for them etc. that they ignore signs this is going on. Then post on here asking what to do. There should be no question what to do, the same thing you would do with any service provider who used your property without asking. Your hair stylist, kids dance, Martial Arts or skating assistant coach doesn’t take your keys and drive your car while you are processing or watching your kid with another coach, do they? Why treat a trainer using your horse for their enrichment behind you back differently?
What “we” can do is not tolerate it. OP has had " the talk" with her trainer. If it happens again, she needs to move the horse or sit there and take it. There’s only two choices once owner makes it clear use of the horse is not authorized. “We” can’t to anything, the individual horse owner is the only one who can.
Over the 50 years as a boarder , this has happened to me more at barns with big lesson programs with riders at mostly intermediate and novice level riders and chronic quality school horse shortage. I left those barns. The more show oriented barns with mainly owner clients it’s not been that big a problem as it’s usually discussed openly. When I caught it happening, always with an new assistant trainer “borrowing” my horse for a lesson it stopped as soon as I talked to the head trainer after they got back. Those new assistants never stayed more then a few months after it hit the fan,
Its also helpful to ask for itemized billing of all services. Once got billed for about 6 Pro rides on Tuesday’s and Thursday’s by an assistant when head trainer was on the road only to accidentally discover a Junior ( as in 3’6" Medal rider who I approved of ) just hacked the horse out. Junior thanked me for letting her trail ride my horse that last month, Tuesday’s and Thursday’s…check itemized bill, Pro Jump schools billed at $60 each. Tuesday’s and Thursday’s. Hit the roof, wasn’t the only one, that assistant got fired and the charges removed or credited.
SPEAK UP. No barn is perfect but the good ones clean up their messes. The rest just push them under a stall mat. Choose wisely.
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It’s taken a long time to find it, but this thread has pointed out the silver lining in having the quirkiest horse in the barn! No one would want to lesson on him, so he would be safe from these kinds of shenanigans.
Serious opinion: if I would find out this happened to one of my horses, I would be outta the barn in a heartbeat. I don’t care who you are, what you’ve done for me in the past, how well we’ve gotten along, you do not take advantage of my good nature. Thankfully, no one ever has, at least not like this. Altho I freely admit there’s always a first time…
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