Training or physical issue? (related to the canter)

[Alter_Pony]

5 yo large pony mare lightly started u/s last fall by another rider. Pony had the winter off because there wasn’t anybody to ride her. I’ve been working with her since April '13; but gets ridden 2 maybe 3 times per week because I have about 20 others to work in the same week.

She has always been very very stiff going to the left, she has improved a LOT at the trot; bends, softens, lengthens, shortens, can maintain straightness on a 10 meter circle 9/10 times (weakness is bulging her shoulder). Pony does have difficulty using her hind end and wants to be very heavy up front. She is a beastly 14.1hh and very very strong. A 2 ring gag has helped a lot.

Her canter is a complete mess going to the left. The first problem is the depart. She “runs” into the canter, whether I ask from the trot or walk. Once she canters, she stiffens up her neck and I’m riding a freight train that will literally run into the fence and trip with her front feet in the turn if I don’t do something about it. She is not bulging her shoulder, she is just not turning soon enough. She is so stiff that I cannot bend her to the inside, she fights it. When I’m done riding, my left arm is sore from trying to keep her from running into the fence (I’m using my outside leg too). Maintaining the canter in a circle is difficult (but can be done, their ring is small) because she pulls and pulls against me. I’m incredibly patient, but I’m approaching my wits’ ends with this one.

I’m sure some of this is a balance issue, but furthermore I think she has physical problems.

First problem is the footing. Clay and sand, gets packed down and really hard.
Pony DRAGS her hind toes. Badly. When I say “drags”, I mean sometimes it almost looks like someone dragged the ring when I’m finished with her.
She doesn’t have these issues going to the right, she is great, maybe wants to be little quicker than I’d prefer, but a different pony all together.

I’m at a loss with this one. I’m not saying it absolutely isn’t something I’m doing or could be doing differently, but I ride 20+ others per week and I’m not having these issues with anyone else. I think the problem is between her ears or in her hind end. Please advise

[DarkBayHunter]

You’d need a vet to assess whether she has a physical issue first.

If its not a physical issue then I have some thoughts for you to consider.

1. Certainly would be nice if you had decent footing to ride on. Is that possible? I doubt that’s the cause of the issue but could cause other issues… foot soreness, etc.

2. Shoeing. Maybe a farrier issue with how her hind feet were trimmed causing the dragging??

3. Get her out of a gag. That’s too much bridle for a total green bean IMO. Something is wrong there. Are you wearing spurs too? Get back to basics… have enough bridle to halt her with just your hands (stay out of the tack in the downward transitions) and carry a whip if there is any delay in upward transitions.

4. To heck with bending to the inside. Straightness is much more important than bending to the inside. To the left maybe do lots of transitions. Trot, canter, halt, back up, trot, canter… Repeat. Do not ask for an inside bend around turns in either direction. Instead get her to be straight. Don’t muddle aids for now either… Hands are for whoa and legs/whip are for go.

Best of luck. Doesn’t sound like she’s a fun ride right now.

[Starda01]

Sounds like a physical issue. You should get a good lameness assessment done with some special attention to the back end. Heaviness in the front end can be a sign of back end problems. My horse will drag his back feet, he’s recently got his hocks injected and it’s made a lot of difference. He’s also had hind suspensory issues which made him not want to use his hind end. That’s pretty much resolved, but the hocks were also needing attention.

Stiffness can also be due to back or neck issues. If you can go back to basics and instead of trying to hold her in a frame, get her to stretch down into the contact to stretch out the back while you warm up, while keeping her in an active walk, might help. Also, any lateral work you can do with her will help with suppleness.

Edited to add, it also sounds like she needs to build some strength in her hind end if she is sound. Transitions, trot work, hill work and cavelletttis, all good and will lighten up the front end.

Good luck!

[CBoylen]

What does it do on a lungeline to the left?

[LoveJubal]

Get a vet/chiro to assess lameness issues. This sounds physical to me.
Once you have that fixed, then resume with Dark Bay Hunter’s later steps.

[rabicon]

Dragging the hind toes sounds physical to me also ESP to that degree. Could be hocks, suspensory, stifles, even neuro like epm or lymes and other things. It’s not normal for the to drag their hind feet like that. Does she have shoes back there? What does her toes look like with that much dragging?

[alterhorse]

Hind toe dragging can be a symptom of EPM, EPSM, etc… I’d have a vet out based on that alone.

[Pally]

It sounds like there could be a physical issue, that would be well advised to have a going over with the vet.

However a few things stuck out at me where the riding may not be giving here as much “remedial help” as it sounds like this project pony needs. Namely all the mentions of pulling, and your arm being sore. She can only pull on you if you give her something to pull against. I suspect that she locks up, so you lock up too, and it becomes a vicious cycle. I know the feeling…my left arm tends to stiffen up, but not always or on every horse - just when it feels a reason, such as the horse bearing down on it. I usually notice it as “oh my god, why are we running like a freight train”…then I figure it out, soften the elbow and arm, and voila, we slow down. I also used to have troubles with some horses that I felt were downhill and always “running”, so I would try to hold them up with the reins and help them “balance”. One day I was riding one of these downhill beasts out on the trail, and finally LET GO going down an actual hill…and it was the first time it DIDN’T feel like she was falling down the hill. It was an eye opener for me!

The other end of the equation is the hind end, and it sounds like she needs to get hers working (pending a vet work up that says it is indeed possible). This means more leg. I know, mentally it can be tough to do with one you feel is running…but they need to to get the back legs reaching under them if there is to be any hope of lifting up the falling front end. In particular, the inside hind needs to really reach, so you need your left leg when tracking left…I know you don’t want to crash through the fence (so I am not saying abandon that outside leg!) but her directional issues are coming from balance issues, so if you help that, the steering should come.

I also would try to get her in some sort of snaffle rather than a gag. Yes, it may have been helping you with control, but at the expense of giving her a steady place to learn about taking proper contact. Even though horses will often put their heads down in one and look pretty, they are often hiding behind the contact. I personally dislike the feel of them, and don’t think they have a lot of place in most horses’ regular flat work program.

I feel for you on the small arena…I have no advice there, I am not a fan either!

[DarkBayHunter]

[QUOTE=Pally;7267641]
She can only pull on you if you give her something to pull against. I suspect that she locks up, so you lock up too, and it becomes a vicious cycle. I know the feeling…my left arm tends to stiffen up, but not always or on every horse - just when it feels a reason, such as the horse bearing down on it. I usually notice it as “oh my god, why are we running like a freight train”…then I figure it out, soften the elbow and arm, and voila, we slow down. I also used to have troubles with some horses that I felt were downhill and always “running”, so I would try to hold them up with the reins and help them “balance”. [/QUOTE]

This made me giggle. It’s so true. My trainer is always telling me that my green bean would be happy for me to hold him up if I’ll do that. It’s about self balance. They have to hold themselves.

[vxf111]

Sounds very physical to me. Never seen a horse drag a foot as a disobediance!

[sara]

Definitely agree with everyone else that this sounds like an issue you should have the vet check out. The severity of the hind toe dragging is a bit alarming, so I would have someone look at her.

I don’t think this is a training issue i.e. someone taught her it was okay to run into the canter and have a crappy canter. If there are no physical reasons (lameness, EPSM, ect.) that a vet can pinpoint for the trouble she’s having, I would go back to square one with her. Can she/does she bend to both the left and right? At the halt, walk, trot? Are you sure she understands what you’re trying to ask of her when you asking for an inside bend? If she was started last season, then had a long time off, I doubt she had enough education to truly understand both how to carry herself physically in terms of balance (especially if she’s built like a tank!) and what bending is even supposed to mean. I would work on developing her balance and muscle tone and ensure she understands what you’re asking at the halt, w/t, before moving on the left lead canter where she’s struggling. Part of this will also be, like a lot of other said, helping her learn to use her hind end by not engaging in the back-and-forth of she pulls, you hold more, she rushes, you hold more, ect.

[Alter_Pony]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

[QUOTE=DarkBayHunter;7266040]
You’d need a vet to assess whether she has a physical issue first.

If its not a physical issue then I have some thoughts for you to consider.

1. Certainly would be nice if you had decent footing to ride on. Is that possible? I doubt that’s the cause of the issue but could cause other issues… foot soreness, etc.

2. Shoeing. Maybe a farrier issue with how her hind feet were trimmed causing the dragging??

3. Get her out of a gag. That’s too much bridle for a total green bean IMO. Something is wrong there. Are you wearing spurs too? Get back to basics… have enough bridle to halt her with just your hands (stay out of the tack in the downward transitions) and carry a whip if there is any delay in upward transitions.

4. To heck with bending to the inside. Straightness is much more important than bending to the inside. To the left maybe do lots of transitions. Trot, canter, halt, back up, trot, canter… Repeat. Do not ask for an inside bend around turns in either direction. Instead get her to be straight. Don’t muddle aids for now either… Hands are for whoa and legs/whip are for go.

Best of luck. Doesn’t sound like she’s a fun ride right now.[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

Unfortunately they aren’t able to improve the footing right now, but they are aware that it needs major improvement. I don’t have her in the gag any longer, using a single jointed full cheek.

@CBoylen;7266192

What does it do on a lungeline to the left?

Lunged her today with the owner present so we can all be on the same page. Pony would canter on the longe line to the right pretty well, but unwilling to do so going to the left. She would do the running trot thing, it was very difficult to bring her into a canter (that she could only maintain for a few strides). Pony swaps lead behind and breaks back to the trot. Owner agrees there’s probably an issue and is talking about getting the vet out.

They want me to continue working her, but only at the trot until the vet comes out.

[QUOTE=Pally;7267641]It sounds like there could be a physical issue, that would be well advised to have a going over with the vet.

However a few things stuck out at me where the riding may not be giving here as much “remedial help” as it sounds like this project pony needs. Namely all the mentions of pulling, and your arm being sore. She can only pull on you if you give her something to pull against. I suspect that she locks up, so you lock up too, and it becomes a vicious cycle. I know the feeling…my left arm tends to stiffen up, but not always or on every horse - just when it feels a reason, such as the horse bearing down on it. I usually notice it as “oh my god, why are we running like a freight train”…then I figure it out, soften the elbow and arm, and voila, we slow down. I also used to have troubles with some horses that I felt were downhill and always “running”, so I would try to hold them up with the reins and help them “balance”. One day I was riding one of these downhill beasts out on the trail, and finally LET GO going down an actual hill…and it was the first time it DIDN’T feel like she was falling down the hill. It was an eye opener for me!

The other end of the equation is the hind end, and it sounds like she needs to get hers working (pending a vet work up that says it is indeed possible). This means more leg. I know, mentally it can be tough to do with one you feel is running…but they need to to get the back legs reaching under them if there is to be any hope of lifting up the falling front end. In particular, the inside hind needs to really reach, so you need your left leg when tracking left…I know you don’t want to crash through the fence (so I am not saying abandon that outside leg!) but her directional issues are coming from balance issues, so if you help that, the steering should come.

I also would try to get her in some sort of snaffle rather than a gag. Yes, it may have been helping you with control, but at the expense of giving her a steady place to learn about taking proper contact. Even though horses will often put their heads down in one and look pretty, they are often hiding behind the contact. I personally dislike the feel of them, and don’t think they have a lot of place in most horses’ regular flat work program.

I feel for you on the small arena…I have no advice there, I am not a fan either![/QUOTE]

I totally get what you mean by the “pulling game”, the problem is that she WILL hit the fence with her foot if I don’t get her away from it. She trips and does it again. I’m afraid she’s going to fall. I just don’t get it!

[QUOTE=sara;7268107]Definitely agree with everyone else that this sounds like an issue you should have the vet check out. The severity of the hind toe dragging is a bit alarming, so I would have someone look at her.

I don’t think this is a training issue i.e. someone taught her it was okay to run into the canter and have a crappy canter. If there are no physical reasons (lameness, EPSM, ect.) that a vet can pinpoint for the trouble she’s having, I would go back to square one with her. Can she/does she bend to both the left and right? At the halt, walk, trot? Are you sure she understands what you’re trying to ask of her when you asking for an inside bend? If she was started last season, then had a long time off, I doubt she had enough education to truly understand both how to carry herself physically in terms of balance (especially if she’s built like a tank!) and what bending is even supposed to mean. I would work on developing her balance and muscle tone and ensure she understands what you’re asking at the halt, w/t, before moving on the left lead canter where she’s struggling. Part of this will also be, like a lot of other said, helping her learn to use her hind end by not engaging in the back-and-forth of she pulls, you hold more, she rushes, you hold more, ect.[/QUOTE]

Yes she does really well at the walk and trot, she does understand what bending is. When I realized she had this issue I strictly did W/T work for a couple weeks and no cantering until she had a good understanding of my lateral aids and using her hind end more (which is very difficult for her).

[DarkBayHunter]

[QUOTE=Alter Pony;7268694]
Lunged her today with the owner present so we can all be on the same page. Pony would canter on the longe line to the right pretty well, but unwilling to do so going to the left. She would do the running trot thing, it was very difficult to bring her into a canter (that she could only maintain for a few strides). Pony swaps lead behind and breaks back to the trot. Owner agrees there’s probably an issue and is talking about getting the vet out.

They want me to continue working her, but only at the trot until the vet.[/QUOTE]

Ok really sounds like a physical issue now. I don’t understand them wanting the horse to stay in work. I wouldn’t at this point.

[Alter_Pony]

The vet was out today. Pony flexed positive in right hind. The vet suspects its the medial collateral ligament because there was a palpable difference in size. Vet said we could do a trial of bute and exercise to see if the pony’s ride-ability improves. Or just give her time off and hope it will heal by itself - which it may or may not. Pony could require maintenance to keep her sound.