I know slow and steady is always the best but I would like to have a horse who isn’t going to kick out if someone gets too close-
Does anyone have any tips? It has happened three times now, she has not made contact but I don’t like it! I will put a red ribbon on next time we go out on a trail ride but that doesn’t help with training. Should I smack her when she does it? I am afraid if I hit her on the rump she will kick out again, but maybe not. It’s just embarrassing. Tips or tricks? Thanks!
Not sure what you mean about “slow and steady.” Dangerous behavior like you describe needs to be dealt with right now and as strongly as required.
First, by all means put a big red ribbon on her and tell everyone that it is for real. Some people seem to think the ribbons are precautionary and do not necessarily mean that this horse WILL kick.
Second, yes if she actually kicks you must discipline her immediately. This assumes of course that you can do so safely, by which I mean that you are not likely to get bucked off or to run into/over someone else. Knowing that you may have to correct her, you should put yourself in a position where it is likely to be safe. So that might mean having a friend with a large-rumped horse that doesn’t kick in front of you to be your bumper just in case. If you aren’t confident that you can ride through her reaction then put someone on her who can.
The sort of correction I use would be smacking her with your whip, saying NO and possibly turning her in a small circle or two to remind her that she is supposed to be paying attention to YOU. But this leaves you with some responsibility to keep her safe and comfortable in the group.
Third, almost any horse will kick if they are actually hit from behind. I teach all of my hunting horses to move their haunches a little to the side (either side at my request) when stopping especially suddenly and in the woods. This further reduces the chance of actually connecting with the horse behind even if they get too close and gives the horse behind a tiny bit more room to stop. Your horse will appreciate that you are taking action to prevent her from being “rear ended” and will feel less inclined to protect herself because she knows that you are also protecting her.
Ultimately, you must either get the kicking to stop or stop riding with anyone - horse, dog or other - behind you.
All of that above sounds good in theory, but in practice it takes a strong rider with a lot of confidence in their ability to sit a buck. First, you have a mare, and a lot of them do not like being crowded, but have to get over it - racehorses do.
A kick is not acceptable, and if you have to, find someone who will take your horse out in company and teach her, or a strong event type rider, if you don’t feel up to riding her through. Start with a smaller group and work up.
I got a jockey to teach my mare to accept the stick once, because I did not feel confident enough. Then she was an angel.
It has happened when we are crowded in the woods and another horse gets right in her butt. So I am afraid that if she bucks when hit she will kick at the horse again but I will definitely bring the crop next time and work some at home with horses coming up behind her. Good tips. Thanks
PinkyPony -
That’s the situation I was talking about so DO put the ribbon in her tail, DO warn the riders behind you that it means business and DO practice at home stopping her and then asking her to move her haunches a few steps to one side or the other as she stops. Then, you will end up at (say) 45-degrees to the line of horses and the horse behind you will naturally aim himself to the “open” side rather than towards her rump. The more you can defuse the situation the less you will need to correct her.
Since you used the word “afraid,” I want to agree again with Foxtrot’s that you may need to put a stronger rider on her in this situation a few times to see what happens and to get the message across.
This can be done and you’ll be so much happier once she’s less troubled about the other horses. Good luck.
Does your horse give any warnings prior to the kick? Pinning ears, lifting a hip, or just being distracted from your aids?
If a warning is given, then I would discipline (less severely) at that point…you are the boss, we will ride forward and on the aids. Early in learning to hunt, my gelding had someone run up on him, such that their horses head left green slobber on my coat. My gelding bucked up/kicked up at the offending horse. For quite a while he would threaten to kick any and all who entered his bubble. He was disciplined with a smack of the crop or a hand with an added GROWL. it then only became necessary for me to say BEHAVE.
My new horse kicked out when run upon this season even though I had positioned myself at the back of 3rd flight. He’s one who doesn’t take lightly to a whip (BIG BUCKS), but understands spurs and being circled and GROWLED at. One of the last hunts this season he was run into again by a green horse/green rider combo and he kicked out…he was severely reprimanded. Later in the hunt at a check the offending rear ended was behind us again and he moved himself off the trail. He got LOTS of pats, scratches and praise for being such a smart good boy.
Stop being psychic! :)You are right, I am a bit afraid because the last time I used the crop (in the ring) I ended up with a broken tailbone. She has been with a trainer since and I asked her to work on this after our ride today. I hope the mare does it with her and not just me. Either way, I need to be ready if/ when she does do it with me and your tip about turning the hind end is great.
I do a number of ‘exercises’ designed to get my guys (and gals) comfortable with this type of situation.
First, I absolutely ‘set it up’ on MY terms for a horse that I suspect will offer to kick (or has already). My own group on a trail ride, with a friend on a steady horse (that they can pressure you with, then take back right quick as she offers the behavior) and some in front of you to stop her from getting away from your correction.
Second, I do exercises that I call Leapfrog, and Inchworm, and Reverse Leapfrog.
Leapfrog - ride in a single file line (the more the merrier.) The last horse in line pulls slightly to the side and trots past the walking line of horses, then pulls in front of the leader to become the new leader. Continue until all horses have done this. (This gets the horses used to horses passing - make sure to do both sides – without them having to become involved.)
Inchworm - Single file, have the first horse jog forward 10 or 20 or 30 paces (or canter several strides, for the more advanced horses.) The 2nd, 3rd, etc. horses remain at walk. Once the first horse drops back to a walk, horse #2 goes, etc. This gets them used to ‘being left’ and gives lots of opportunity for a walking horse to have another horse approach them from behind at a faster gait.
Reverse Leapfrog - Single file, have the leader leg yield to the left (or right) and halt. The rest of the line files past, and the halted horse rejoins the end of the line, then #2 does it, etc. This teaches patience and control while horses pass you.
Lots of opportunities in the above exercises for correction.
Foxhunters have to forgive others ramming into them.
I correct instantly in any case, but far more sharply if a horse offers a behavior without (much) provocation. I still punish, but less harshly, if it was after a rude horse plowing into us, or harrassing us all day long and my horse finally getting fed up with it.
YOU MUST PUNISH ANY KICK INSTANTLY and teach the horse It. Is. Unacceptable. Under any scenario (including someone running into you.)
These exercises could help a ton – I’ve used them for years with excellent result.
Wow, thank you so much!
[QUOTE=Hunter’s Rest;7638985]
I do a number of ‘exercises’ designed to get my guys (and gals) comfortable with this type of situation.
First, I absolutely ‘set it up’ on MY terms for a horse that I suspect will offer to kick (or has already). My own group on a trail ride, with a friend on a steady horse (that they can pressure you with, then take back right quick as she offers the behavior) and some in front of you to stop her from getting away from your correction.
Second, I do exercises that I call Leapfrog, and Inchworm, and Reverse Leapfrog.
Leapfrog - ride in a single file line (the more the merrier.) The last horse in line pulls slightly to the side and trots past the walking line of horses, then pulls in front of the leader to become the new leader. Continue until all horses have done this. (This gets the horses used to horses passing - make sure to do both sides – without them having to become involved.)
Inchworm - Single file, have the first horse jog forward 10 or 20 or 30 paces (or canter several strides, for the more advanced horses.) The 2nd, 3rd, etc. horses remain at walk. Once the first horse drops back to a walk, horse #2 goes, etc. This gets them used to ‘being left’ and gives lots of opportunity for a walking horse to have another horse approach them from behind at a faster gait.
Reverse Leapfrog - Single file, have the leader leg yield to the left (or right) and halt. The rest of the line files past, and the halted horse rejoins the end of the line, then #2 does it, etc. This teaches patience and control while horses pass you.
Lots of opportunities in the above exercises for correction.
Foxhunters have to forgive others ramming into them.
I correct instantly in any case, but far more sharply if a horse offers a behavior without (much) provocation. I still punish, but less harshly, if it was after a rude horse plowing into us, or harrassing us all day long and my horse finally getting fed up with it.
YOU MUST PUNISH ANY KICK INSTANTLY and teach the horse It. Is. Unacceptable. Under any scenario (including someone running into you.)
These exercises could help a ton – I’ve used them for years with excellent result.[/QUOTE]
Great exercises! I will have to try them with my new guy to see how he does.
Our hunt would welcome anybody to come out on hound exercises - but it is mid-week - to get horses used to the hunt but it is a less intense outing.
In addition to all the great exercises and suggestions…you may want to consider having your mare put on Regumate. I have my riding horses on the injectable version (relatively new this year) twice a month. This keeps them from really coming into season. I’ve noticed that my mares are much more likely to kick depending on their cycle. Keeping them on Regumate just makes their lives a bit easier and they can stay more focused on their job. Plus, I have a few that get back sore and this helps them.
Good luck. It is something that is definately trainable…but you do really need to stay on top of them and watch for signs. Most give a warning…and THAT is when you need to act. And even when they are good…NEVER trust them. I don’t mean that in a bad way…but set them up for success and help avoid putting them in the situation where they feel they must kick. Mine a learn how to pony other horses…and how to be polite about it. That also seems to help.
Here’s how I train that:
First of all, I make it absolutely clear to the horse that they get NO vote in what they might think their personal bubble is when there is a human present. They MUST tolerate other horses in close quarters, even bumping into them. I don’t care what they do in the field on their time, but they HAVE to tolerate it with a rider aboard or otherwise attached to a human.
I start with playing the leapfrog game in the arena with one other horse. Preferably a horse who is either a buddy or a greater than (less likely to snark/kick at one higher in the pecking order) in the herd. If that isn’t possible, choose a horse who will ignore the angry one. If THAT isn’t possible, use what you’ve got.
Starting at the walk, I have the other horse walk up behind and then pass as close as possible WITHOUT eliciting an angry response from my horse. This may mean the other horse can get 20ft behind and 20ft next to me. That’s fine, start out as far away as you need to. You’re trying to build a positive experience, not fry their brain. Then I pass them. Over and over, getting closer and closer. Then we do it at the trot. Then the canter. I do this until both horses are bored out of their minds with it as many days/sessions as it takes.
Then I add a second horse. Then a third. I try to get up to four or five if I have enough willing participants. We move around the arena and I have them crowd me from the sides, from behind, stop abruptly in front of me, etc. Ultimately I have some of them bump into me as well.
Make sure the humans you chose to help you with this are going to listen to your instructions and won’t just insist they know best and try to move too quickly.
I praise, pat, and otherwise make a big deal out of my horse when he ignores the other horses or just doesn’t respond like a jerk.
My horses all learn a verbal “ahhh ahh!” as a warning to knock off whatever they’re doing or thinking about doing. I also carry a crop. Kicking at another horse will get two good whacks on the butt and a sharp “NO!!”. Biting gets a smack or two on the shoulder.
I am so glad I asked- I want to start her right and you all have some excellent suggestions! The hunt I am going to try to take her with (thanks foxtrot, but canada is so far away) this year has summer trail rides, so we are starting there and then probably hill topping for a bit- she is a 4yo ottb. I hope this thread can help others as well!
My young OTTB has a tendancy to think about kicking. So far I am finding that she is not worried about a horse being behind her, it is when they are next to her. Luckily, she doesn’t just kick out, she puts her ears back first and then you can feel her shifting her butt to the side. So far a tap with the crop on her shoulder, a cut it out growl, and leg to shift her away has worked. She has not kicked, just shown a tendancy to think it might be ok behavior. My older mare has a personal bubble and she hates other horses to touch her. I have had her since she was a yearling and she is 20 this year. She has only kicked 3 times since I have owned her and all were because horses kept running into her or their riders allowed them to touch her even when warned that she was getting pi**ed. She hasn’t kicked out in years because I am aware of this behavior and I manage it. I usually give her a whap with the crop on her neck or shoulder when she is acting “peevish” and a cut it out growl. I love the leap frog game or as my old trainer used to call it hunter pass. I have been doing this with my young mare on the trail rides I have been taking her to and it does seem to be working.
Agree with all the training exercises and will ditto that a swift and strong correction IF the mare kicks is required. And I mean swift and strong.
A week after I bought her I had my new horse out on a hunt trail ride that was slow and easy. We were paused a gate and not crowded. Out of the blue she took two steps back and double barreled a gelding!!! 
I lit into her with my crop like a crazed monkey on a swing for one solid minute and knocked the idea of kicking a horse out of her memory card. She has been completely trust worthy since that incident. Know your horse and the level of correction it needs- the correction I gave my horse might be overkill on another horse and not enough for yet a different horse.
Good luck and welcome to hunting!
Hunter’s Rest has made excellent suggestions. I’ve used some variation of those training games with many horses with great success. I also to lots of follow the leader with lots of speeding up and slowing down to help teach auto-breaks.
Carrying a dressage whip rather then a crop can help if you’ve made her accustomed to it at home. It can be used much more subtly then a crop so if you feel her threaten, give her a touch and a voice correction easier then jumping right to a whomp with a crop. Sometimes prevention is key until she learns what’s expected. Try this on a trail ride or w a few friends first.
Another great tip is to make sure she is comfortable w horses near her. Hack w friends or ride in the ring beside each other, stand around and have a friend stand their horse close and scratch your mare, give her pats and even treats so he thinks other horses near her is a good thing.
The best tip ever though- keep the crazy I front of you. Ask someone you know with a good horse to ride behind you who won’t crowd your mare. She needs to learn that footsteps behind her aren’t scary and that it is a very rare thing for another horse to run into her. I teach all my students the mantra ‘if your close enough to get kicked, it’s your fault for getting kicked’ to remind them to take responsibility but I choose carefully who rides behind my young horses so that mine won’t be the one kicking.
