training the reinback

[DownYonder]

I have watched many riders over the years struggle with the reinback. The horse is reluctant to step back (sometimes downright resistant), won’t stay straight, gets stuck at the end and sort of stops before moving forward again, or moves off hesitantly, or crooked, or tries to break to trot, or gets behind or above the bit, etc. In some (many?) cases, the rider is visibly pulling the horse back with the reins.

For those who consistently score 7+ on this movement - what has been your training strategy? What are your aids, and how have you adapted/refined your aids to address a particular horse’s reinback issues?

My horse, for instance, can fairly consistently do decent reinbacks at home (unless he is already in a snit about something - LOL!) But at shows, he tends to go dumb on himself, and rarely scores over 6.0 for reinback. He is schooling 4th Level, but we are probably going to not show at 4-3 due to the double reinback. He is being a bit of a dumblood about that.:rolleyes:

[Cat_Tap]

I am not totally sure this is correct but this is what I do. I lighten the weight in my seat. I tilt my upper body minutely forward, apply alternate leg along with a squeeze of the reins on the opposite side.

[dotneko]

I agree with the slight lightening of the seat.
Ask the horse to step forward from the leg. The hand does not pull back, but neither does it allow the forward through. The horse should step to the bit and then ‘bounce’ back off of the non-allowing hand.
The signal to stop reining back is softening forward with the hand.
If the horse does not understand, wait it out. Don’t start pulling. You can get help from the ground if necessary.
Straightness is addressed with the legs.

[beowulf]

i teach it on the ground first. verbally. “back” - thumb in the chest, back up straight. i set visual markers for myself and the horse - a cone and two poles - teach them to back up thru the poles, which will help keep them straight. one cone is the starting, the other the finish. i keep it to 4 or 5 steps only, the length of the poles.

do this until they associate that area with backing up and start to “offer” the behavior and basically perform the entire task and back up thru the pole chute themselves.

with all of mine, they know “back” - i use it daily on the ground if they are groundtied, if they go in the trailer, if they need to move – so by the time i introduce it undersaddle it is already a known command on the ground.

then i try undersaddle. it’s important to first ask them to back up one step and then go, walk forward immediately with abundant praise. i practice every day for a week or so, and put it into my transitions. for instance, i might do a trot halt transition, think of picking up my hands (not pulling back) and lighten my seat while saying “back”. my legs will slide back slightly so each calf presses the flank with each hoof back. one step back and reward. i do teaching backing up a little differently, when they back up they are yielding, i press forward with my hand - for the greener horses i might rest it on their wither when they perform the step, as i do teach the greenbeans that a pat/hand on the wither is a sign of release/reward. rinse/repeat. it helps if you halt along the rail, or even in between a cone or pole.

once you can get one step that is not resistant, try two. eventually i will ask without the verbal command, but in the early stages verbal is quite important. it will take a long, long time to get backing up polished to perfection, which is why i practice a little every day so that backing up is as route and as commonplace as a W/T transition.

i think for many, there are two issues:
one, “back” is not reinforced on the ground.
two, many riders erroneously have used backing up as a disciplinary/punitive measure. so many, many horses do not associate it pleasantly.

[Mondo]

Couldn’t say it better, so I’m just going to quote dotneko.
“I agree with the slight lightening of the seat.
Ask the horse to step forward from the leg. The hand does not pull back, but neither does it allow the forward through. The horse should step to the bit and then ‘bounce’ back off of the non-allowing hand.
The signal to stop reining back is softening forward with the hand.
If the horse does not understand, wait it out. Don’t start pulling. You can get help from the ground if necessary.
Straightness is addressed with the legs.”

It’s all right there. Rein back is a misnomer IMHO. It should come largely from the leg. Your leg is creating the forward, your hand is sending that energy backward rather than forward. If you want good, diagonal steps, alternate the leg pressure once the horse starts moving backward. Another good way to practice rein back at home is to put the horse against the wall (or rail) with no place to go. Lighten your seat, put your legs on and give him no option but to back up. Good luck!

[Velvet]

[QUOTE=Cat Tap;8748592]
I am not totally sure this is correct but this is what I do. I lighten the weight in my seat. I tilt my upper body minutely forward, apply alternate leg along with a squeeze of the reins on the opposite side.[/QUOTE]

Same, but you need to be sure the horse is solid between the leg or the horse will wander left and right too much between the leg aids.

[MysticOakRanch]

I would add, I use my legs further back for the reinback (along with the slight lightening of the seat) - and when my legs come forward to the girth, along with a bit of forward from the hand, it is the signal to move forward.

I also start with a bit of ground work to help the horse understand the concept that she can go backwards. Once under saddle, I don’t really mess with it until they are almost 2nd level - I want my halts (and forward out of the halt) well established before I start doing backwards movement. But they need to learn how to go backwards on the ground early on (for many reasons!).

Under saddle, I start with asking for a single step backwards - and if they get confused, I go to a half turn on the forehand (to let them know they are moving, just not in a forward direction), then try asking for a single step backwards again.

I’ve gotten good scores on my prior horses, and all have learned with this process. I’m working on it right now with my mare, good timing on the post!

[Velvet]

Adding, the horse must still be in front of the leg and able to go into a trot at the slightest indication from the rider. It needs to be actively stepping. Each rider does slightly different things with their body in all movements. No two riders are the same. The horse just interprets the aids appropriately after they understand their rider. The main things are straightness, forward energy (that is contained and allowed to move backwards rather than forward), engagement and thoroughness.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=Cat Tap;8748592]
I am not totally sure this is correct but this is what I do. I lighten the weight in my seat. I tilt my upper body minutely forward, apply alternate leg along with a squeeze of the reins on the opposite side.[/QUOTE]

This works well. I prefer I lightly closed hand, and letting my body do the talking.

It’s very important to ask for no more than 1 or 2 steps initially, and to praise frequently.

I dislike seeing it used as a disciplinary device.

[Beentheredonethat]

I would never tilt my body forward. I want my horse’s weight shifted back, not forward, so I sit up taller and and think back. I make sure the horse is giving in the rein contact and off the leg and signal the reinback with my seat. My seat bones and muscles are the connection to the horse’s hind end, so I step “back” with them to signal the back (and forward to walk forward. I am doing the rocker at 4th, too.)

In some ways, it’s similar to asking for piaffe, because you need the horse active and coming up in the back. To do that, I deepen the seat, or tailbone under, and I think “up” with my seat (like scooping the horse up) for piaffe and more lower leg. For back, I think "back"and a supporting leg, but following.

[Velvet]

I think more of lightening the seat a bit, not so much leaning forward. I think of following with each butt cheek. The only thing with the feeling of going more forward with the seat is that it often helps a horse realize the back door is open, without having to close the front door hard–when teaching them. I think it’s more about teaching correctly, then improving it and it finally does become more off the seat and very subtle aids. I think it’s a matter of clarity and a step along the way, not the end result. Same as teaching a horse anything in dressage. You start with very simple and clear (black and white aids) that make sense to the horse and then continue to refine them through the levels and years.

[alicen]

Does anyone remember in which video Carl Hester was doing rein-back training with Charlotte Dujardin? Must have been a few years ago, at least.

Here’s Werth at Aachen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fereTjvfPgA 3:12

Marks ranged from 6.5 to 9. Go figure.

I found this to be inspirational. Pop into slo-mo and observe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vblF6OaVPDc RB at 1:55.

[Moogles]

I would add the quality of the halt is very important prior to the rein back. The hind end needs to be tucked up under them, not trailing out behind or you will have a dragging strung out rein back and resistance. The horse should be marching back and engaged. I do lighten my seat and aid with my legs and an unyielding but soft hand to signal the rein back. I will also use my whip in a light tap tap tap on the top of the haunches just as I would in a collected walk if my legs alone do not get enough activity.

I like work on the ground before undersaddle and will test it often while we hand walk after our ride. If I stop and back up, he should follow my body and march backwards. I then march forward and he should march forward. Doing these exercises really improved his responsiveness under saddle.

I found the more that I did forward-rein back-forward really improved the basic quality of the rein back as he learned to sit and engage more. I really like canter out of rein back as well.

[CFFarm]

I start from the ground also with a press to the chest and a voice command “back”. Then move to a dressage whip. Then to saddle.

I find the cue for back is the hardest to describe to someone.

If you have a ground person to take your place when you are in the saddle it usually is easier for the horse to get it. If not, if you practice up to a fence the horse will eventually figure out that if he can’t go forward or sideways, back is what you are asking for.

I also lighten my seat and squeeze my calves almost like asking for forward except my energy is pushing back.

If you remember to treat it like a forward movement it’s easier. My horse will back readily with voice only now but of course, in a show that’s not possible. I will hold a stead rein, cue for back and when he meets the rein resistance, backs. No pulling on the reins. Horse’s weight forward feeling to back. Hard to explain.

[Cat_Tap]

Not that I ride anywhere near Charlotte but when I watched her rein back her shoulders did “minutely” move forward when she asked for the rein back, which is what I mentioned in my earlier post.

[alicen]

[QUOTE=Cat Tap;8749807]
Not that I ride anywhere near Charlotte but when I watched her rein back her shoulders did “minutely” move forward when she asked for the rein back, which is what I mentioned in my earlier post.[/QUOTE]

Moving the leg back (unless consciously corrected) will automatically lighten the seat bones and tilt body slightly forward.

[DownYonder]

Thanks for all your comments. We are training the reinback pretty much as most of you have suggested - a good halt, slight lightening of the seat, using our legs slightly behind the girth to ask for activity behind, but into a “non-allowing” hand. And then moving our legs forward and “allowing” with the hand to signal the horse to step forward again. Both trainer and I ride him, and we use the same aids. As I said, he has gotten fairly good at the initial reinback at home, but the double reinback at 4-3 sort of befuddles him. He seems to think he is being punished - he has a very strong sense of self (he can be a bit stallion-y at times), and he just doesn’t understand why he has to back up twice in a row. It’s just a little too much “submission” for His Nibs - LOL!

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;8751867]
Thanks for all your comments. We are training the reinback pretty much as most of you have suggested - a good halt, slight lightening of the seat, using our legs slightly behind the girth to ask for activity behind, but into a “non-allowing” hand. And then moving our legs forward and “allowing” with the hand to signal the horse to step forward again. Both trainer and I ride him, and we use the same aids. As I said, he has gotten fairly good at the initial reinback at home, but the double reinback at 4-3 sort of befuddles him. He seems to think he is being punished - he has a very strong sense of self (he can be a bit stallion-y at times), and he just doesn’t understand why he has to back up twice in a row. It’s just a little too much “submission” for His Nibs - LOL![/QUOTE]

I just have to say - the “double reinback” is VERY difficult- I was a bit surprised to see it in 4th level with this last round of dressage tests. It use to be in GP, and was a difficult move then, often poorly executed. You might start with RB, walk more steps then in the test, and when he’s relaxed, halt and RB again, and slowly sneak it in to shorter and shorter walk steps in between. And add a little neck “scritch” in the halt to help relax him?

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8748855]
I dislike seeing it used as a disciplinary device.[/QUOTE]

This is the worst and more than often, people use RB as a forceful punishment, destroying their horse’s mouth, without understanding the real purpose/action of the RB. The same will then complain their horses don’t want to take contact afterward…

RB is not a punishment, it’s a training tool to regroup and collect a horse. It’s a movement that controls the whole body of the horse.

It’s a movement/tool that needs to be trained, not forced.

When ask for a RB, it starts from my seat that blocks the forward movement, the legs aid to “move” (If I want to back up faster, I just have to give more legs) and slight resistance from the reins. I then usually try to give/follow the head forward with my hands so the horse can really stretch its nose out while backing up. (Like I would do in the walk actually) I always got good scores in my RB because I don’t cramp my horse’s nose to chest to back up.

I always start training the backing up from the ground and using voice command. I then do it from the saddle still using the voice command in order to be able to use as minimal rein aid as possible.

[netg]

My advice will be useless for the OP’s double reinback question, so sorry I’m not being helpful to you, DY, but hopefully this can help someone else…

I never knew the reinback to be difficult, but with my mare it has been slightly. Her default misbehavior is to halt. If she’s scared or resistant, or just flat out confused because my aids are not specific enough, she halts. Safety-wise, I LOVE the halt as the “bad” behavior because my gelding is a bucker and my mom’s mare is a spinner. However, if we try to push when she’s trying to tell us something she naturally wants to back which could get dangerous as they can so easily trip and flip if they learn to fly backward. She has learned to listen for more aids and NOT back when we don’t want it, and it got her stuck and unwilling to back when we did want it. I trail ride as often as possible, even if just a walk out in the desert after a lesson, and have started setting myself up to have to back through the gate to go out. Backing in this situation keeps her straight without me trying and makes it make sense to her. Instead of her busy mind trying to interpret, she easily takes my aids as meaning to shift into reverse until I tell her to stop.