Training the trot/jog

[KSquared]

I have both my horses under saddle now and they are both going well. Myst is going well and we are walking, halting and standing.

I have a couple training humps I’d like to pick your brains about.

1. Getting a nice backing up. - Myst can back, and he can do it well, but most of the times he wants his nose in the air and I am trying in vain to back him and I really hate to haul on his mouth. How can I help him give a consistent good back?

He also does this on the ground. He will back up great, then just decide he doesn’t want too anymore. If I put him on driving lines he does well. He will back up so smoothly…how do I translate that to the saddle?

2. Getting a nice Jog - Myst and I can barely go around the arena or even half the arena without breaking into the walk. I know he can trot, the last trail ride we went on we trotted the whole way. Its not a nice trot, its a bit jarring, but I am sure that is because we don’t know how to jog…I can occasionaly get a nice strides of a nice jog out of him but then he goes back to be strung out, hollow back, head up.

How can I teach him to give me a nice jog/trot? Or even just keep going?

I squeeze, I heel and sometimes I feel like a 3 year old on his back kicking him to death and he is ignoring me and grunting. It is rather embarrassing when we are at a training show and I am strung out and kicking him and he is just plopping a long like a stubborn mule.

Also lately he has gotten very lazy on the lunge line and I have to nearly chase him around to get the trot out of him.

He is smart as a whip. Could it be he doesn’t want to be a performance ring around the rosy guy and would be happier on trails… or is it more training?

(He is a Morgan)

[Fillabeana]

He is smart as a whip.

I think you’re right!

So, I think he’s doing EXACTLY what you’ve taught him to do.

Now, bear in mind, I do NOT think there is any malice, poor horsemanship, stupidity, or anything else going on on your part that is ‘your fault’.

There are just things for you to become aware of, and change.

Here’s my guess as to what happened about the mounted backup:
You ask for a step back.
He gives you one.
Great! We’re all on board here.
So, now you want him to back faster, more steps.
So you ask him, he takes a step back, and you ask bigger, right away, more speed, more steps.

He’s smart, so he figures, ‘I tried ‘step back’ the second time, and you let me know (by ‘asking more’ or ‘asking bigger’ for more life) that ‘step back’ was the wrong answer.’

So, I’d say give him some time.
Take what he gives you, don’t drill him and don’t ask until he gives up (or gives his impression of an old, slow arthritic horse).
Ask until he gives you something nice (to start, just a little flavor of what you wanted), and QUIT ASKING.

Give it a minute (take 20 breaths, in, out…) if you’ve asked him something new, that he’s had to really think about to come up with the answer. If you present something again, right away, he doesn’t have time for any neural connections to form. The term ‘let it soak’ is relevant here, he has to have time to let that new learning become a part of him.

That’s why you can ask an experienced horse lots of things, right on top of each other. The neural pathways are a highway, the horse knows in both brain and muscle memory what to do.
Your greenie has no neural pathway yet, it’s as though he’s bushwhacking. Give him time to blaze his marks on the trees, and he will find that neural trail more easily next time, until he doesn’t even have to look for it.

After he gets the right answer, after he soaks, you can go on to something else. If you go right back to it, he’s going to think he gave you the wrong response, so you’re going to ‘untrain’ him.
Have an idea of several different things you can work on.
Sometimes it’s appropriate to get off, be done for the day, and sometimes it’s good to just go do something else. Sometimes you can come back to ‘it’, sometimes you want to leave ‘it’ until next time.

I think when he gets the idea that he can ‘get it right’, that neither of you is frustrated or upset in the arena, he’ll be a dandy ‘arena’ horse. Going out on the trail can help, too. It can get things interesting, get his energy up, so that he will volunteer more.
He IS smart, and I’d bet you anything that he’s going to start coming up with his own ‘answers’…maybe not what you wanted, but he’ll be thinking. If you laugh, or even just smile inside, if you appreciate that, he will know it. And so he’ll keep thinking, trying, participating. If you can keep that part of him, that is SUCH a treasure, you will create something priceless between you.

[Two_Fishies]

I agree with Fillabeana whole heartily!

I would pay close attention to the timing of your release. When you cue him to back, how quickly do you release your reins? Are you releasing with every step or waiting until he takes four or five steps back?

This video is really good for showing proper release:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUaBgdyyOqE

Same with your legs and and longe whip. Ideally, you should be asking with a soft cue. If he doesn’t respond, that’s when you kick/crack the whip/tap him on the butt. When he responds, stop asking and let him soak.

Jog–for a Morgan–is an advanced move. Asking most QHs to jog is easy because that’s what they do in the pasture anyway. Your guy’s natural trot is going to be more forward with suspension, so asking for it right away will either confuse him or teach him to work in a false frame. Work on teaching him to get a soft feel, relax under saddle, and collect first. Work on these things one at a time. Avoid the temptation to push him up into the bridle. When he learns those three things, you’ll be able to put them together and ask any speed of trot–jog or extended.

[KSquared]

You guys are absolutely right! This is why I need a collective mind sometimes. I grew up riding finished horses, so everything I know about riding is basically WRONG in this situation. Here I am training my own greenie(s) and I am treating them like they should know everything already and not giving it much light that they only know what I am telling them to know. I did all the ground work, I got in the saddle and I am expecting too much too soon and without the proper knowledge.

When I ask for the back I am pulling pulling pulling asking for more more more. I don’t give a release to let him think about it and then ask for another. Again this is my riding finished horses brain working.

So when I take him to the training show next I won’t rush the back, I will ask once, let him take the step, reward with release and a big breath and ask again.

So what I am hearing is we should work on getting our walk to be fluid, smooth and able to slow that, or extend that and help him get into frame before we work on a Jog? When we are ready for the jog, our jog should be ready to go because he will have learned to be in frame from the walk.

When we are on the trail should I ask him to back up occasionally? Allow him to trot and work on easing it down? Or let him trot out?

I am expecting too much from him, but that is all me and the way I was trained and what I grew up riding. Riding a push button finished horse is a lot different than training one from the ground.

Thanks!
.

[Fillabeana]

When I ask for the back I am pulling pulling pulling asking for more more more. I don’t give a release to let him think about it and then ask for another. Again this is my riding finished horses brain working.

You don’t want to pull, even on a finished horse. Some horses will tolerate it, and back anyway. You want to set it up so your horse knows you are asking for something. Pulling back on the reins can give direction, but what you want is for the horse to move his feet. Sometimes if you pull back the horse just thinks you want him to tuck his nose in. Anyway, you’re asking for him to move a foot (or even just shift his weight, at first). So take up the rein until he’s searching for the right answer, and then don’t pull MORE, just wait for him to find it.

[Emilia]

I have a Morgan and I am a pleasure rider, an amateur through and through.

I am not going to say anything about backing up, because the posters above explained it thoroughly.

As for, how I got the jog out of our Morgan, here it goes:

He has a “western” bloodline in him and he jogs naturally well, but he can do a big trot, too. He started more on a big side as a young horse, but eventually slowed down and rounded.

I would post or two-point his trot, when he was young. Only, when he slowed down, shortened, and rounded, I started to sit.

He is also a laid back horse, so, slow, we-get-there-when-we-get-there moving appeals to him. (He also prefers to canter slowly and it feels like laying in a cradle.)

On trails, I would let him go out in a larger trot, just to get him forward and swinging. Then, when he would get a rhythm and also started to “chill,” we would try to go slower, shorter, and kind of rounded.

First, I started to post little slower to get slower rhythm. I also got really upright and kind of thought, mentally, slow/resist, and might check a little with the rein for a small give. Think tapping the brake in the car. I sat the trot lightly first and kept riding. If I sat too heavy, he would just stop, because that’s what I trained him to do.

At that point of the ride, he was ready to slow down anyway, so he picked on it pretty fast. I would not attempt it, if I felt he was not mentally & physically ready to “take a break” from fast, forward trot.

I only did a couple of strides, then let him go to walk and praised lavishly. We built on that.

As for your other remarks about longeing and such:

My experience with this particular Morgan is that he detests being drilled and he can only do a couple of dry-runs, meaning arena work or longe line, before getting annoyed. He needs a meaning behind the moves and no, I cannot fake it by “thinking the purpose.” It must be there in the front of his very own eyes!

That’s why, I have moved our schooling to fields and trails primarily. If I can only be in the arena/pasture or so, I use a lot of “toys,” such as barrels, poles, tarps, flags, balloons, cones, plastic bags, big balls, etc.

I try to keep him mentally stimulated and interested. I think up our exercises ahead of time and change them in quick succession. It is a lot of work.

If I am introducing something new, I start with something already mastered, praise, then ride that wave, when he feels good about himself and show something new and work on it for a little bit. Then, finish with something already mastered again. Short sessions. No drill.

My main purpose in the training is just to get along with him quietly and peacefully and help him to carry the rider well, so that we enjoy each other’s company and stay safe and healthy.

Enjoy your Morgan! I really like ours! :):yes::love-struck:

[KSquared]

That is what I do now. I post to his trot, I can’t sit it at all. He is certainly a western horse though. He doesn’t have a lot of animation or a big trot, He is s stock horse type morgan, old old Justin Morgan bloodlines.

He is defiantly a “I have done that, can we move on” kinda guy and at being 8 years old now he is still full of it and I do like to lunge him a little before I get on, but he seems to be starting to really dislike it and will strike out at the lunge whip, so I have stopped and I play with him in the pasture to get the sillies out. (He was a untouched rescue, only ever halter broke) He has never bucked, or kicked out when mounted. (Reared once when a Cow charged us, don’t blame him for that, biggest cow with the biggest horns I have ever seen)

I have taken him through many obstacle courses that included a mattress on the ground, tires, a fire extinguisher, balloons, noodles and weasel balls A teeter totter bridge, a regular bridge, dead fall obstacles and he could not have cared less.

I do tell him easy and use my pinkies to give a little touch to the reins as I ask him to easy. He does slow down for a stride or two but then it goes into a walk, then it is trying to get him back into the trot, then its jarring trot, easy, pinkies and back to a walk again. He does this little almost flying lead change when he picks up a trot sometimes.

Good advice and good things to think about and to work on.

[flaxenfilly23]

Alright, I’ll throw my two cents in here The first thing you need to do to get him to jog, is to get him to consistently trot without breaking gait. It is not ok for him to choose to walk when you haven’t asked him to slow to a walk. To teach this I make sure to have an empty arena or safe pasture all to myself and allow the horse to go wherever they want. I don’t care if it is straight to the gate or 10 foot circles or whatever. The ONLY thing I want my horse to do in this exercise is stay in the gait I choose. I don’t spend too much time at the walk with lazy type horses as they have no problem staying at that gait Move up to the trot and allow him to pick his own pace. I realize it may not be comfortable and you will probably be posting the trot, but as long as he doesn’t break gate don’t mess with him. If he breaks into a canter, one rein stop him and then go back to the trot. Don’t let him rest long when you stop him or he will figure out he can take a break if he goes up to a canter. It is more work for them to stop, flex and then pick a trot right back up though so they tend to learn to stay in the trot. If he breaks to a walk (and WAIT UNTIL HE BREAKS!!!) give him a firm kick, or if he is really dull a good smack with the rein to get him going again. I’m not saying be abusive, but he has to learn, in no uncertain terms, it’s not his choice what gait you are going to travel at. Once he goes around the arena for 2 or 3 minutes without offering to break, ask him to come to a halt and allow him to rest. Be sure to give him lots of praises as well. It is really important you wait until he makes the mistake of breaking gait before you correct him though. If you “nanny” him along and bump him up faster right before he breaks gait 1. He is going to learn to be dull to your aids and 2. It will be really really hard to teach him to slow down. He should know that going at a super slow trot (jog) is absolutely ok as long as he doesn’t break down to a walk.

Once you have this exercise mastered I’ll give you some tips on slowing the trot down to a more comfortable jog

[Emilia]

@KSquared;7398461

He is defiantly a “I have done that, can we move on” kinda guy and at being 8 years old now he is still full of it and I do like to lunge him a little before I get on, but he seems to be starting to really dislike it and will strike out at the lunge whip, so I have stopped and I play with him in the pasture to get the sillies out…

Our Morgan did not mature until 9 years old. We had a big blow-up around that time and, after that, it was like he decided he was going to finally grow up.

He has all his virtues and vices as before, but something in him changed. He feels like an adult horse now. It took a long time!

So, if your guy is anything like mine, you are almost there (ours is actually little spooky). Just keep your course and be quiet, calm, and confident with him.

Flaxenfilly23 has a good advice on trot, the importance of maintaining the gait, etc.

I would like to add, I could only teach variations of speeds within a gait on trails. Because he did not like arena at all, he would get dull, breaking gaits, hollow, etc.

On trails, we were always going somewhere and he kept that “future” on his mind and it was easier to maintain him in a particular gait and shape it.

Also, for us, the shortening exercises worked better on the way out (after the first outburst of “yey, we are out and about!”), because he was naturally cautious and thus slower. I just had to watch out that he did not hollow.

If I take him into arena now (only occasionally), he works very well.

I tried many disciplines with him and he seems to have settled on trail riding, although he mainly likes to just socialize.

[KSquared]

This has all been wonderful advice. I think I will leave the showing to the mare who seems to really enjoy it and take my Myst on the trail rides. We can work on all the advice you guys have given to me in a fun setting he will likely enjoy more than a constant testing.