Trakehner Mare looking for the right man...HELP! (Sorry a little long)

[danichilders]

So I’m switching gears for the next few years from hunter/jumper trainer and dressage dabbler into breeding the love of my life (furry anyways). My ATA registered mare Divine Intervention (Gaeshan) is absolutely lovely, is 17.2/17.3 HH athletic, sensible and just a lover. She’s 3/4 Trakehner, 1/4 Hanoverian and her mother Adajia was a great eventer from what I’ve heard (she’s since passed away) and her background I know little about.

I’ve owned Gaeshan since she was 2 weeks old and have raised and trained her single handedly, she was born broke, the easiest little thing I’ve ever hopped on and within a few weeks under saddle, jumping small courses with changes. We’ve shown hunters and jumpers on the AA circuit and she’s been shown through 1st level dressage, she picked it up very quickly and loved the challenge but has had surgery in 2013 to remove a bone chip with little results.

She is very adaptable riding wise, so I’m looking for a Trakehner stallion that is as well. I’m hoping for an emphasis in jumpers, but am very open to hunter, or eventers but ATHLETIC and good work ethic is key for me, I don’t want something that doesn’t want to work as much as I do haha.

She’s going to be 10 in April and I think now is a great time. I have previous breeding experience. I’ve helped birth several foals, raise them and train them, though not out of my own pocketbook.

My hopes for a foal is to have a little bit more substance with bone structure, Gaeshan is on the leggy, lean side and I want a little more umpf! But looking at several ATA stallions, I’m not sure who can offer that for me. She’s almost 18 HH and I’m definitely ok with something around 16.3-17HH. Also I’m hoping for more lofty gates, I LOVE her canter but her trot is the easiest sitting trot there is SO I’m hoping for more spring and scope. She’s laid back like her mother was and I love that so hoping to keep her mind set. Honestly I’d be fine with a carbon copy of my mare, the injury is killing me that she can’t live up to her full potential but am hoping an offspring might be able to, I am well aware of the pros and cons of breeding so that being said, let me know who your favorite sire would be as a cross for her.

Also, I’m very unfamiliar with her bloodlines (I’ve never been a bloodline person, if they prove themselves to me athletically then I like them, I’m not one to drool over lineage…) any info you may have would be great especially on her dam side. I am hoping to stay reasonable but am willing to pay for more if the sire is noteworthy enough for me. Thanks in advance for your help!!

Dressage show pics from Aug 24-25 #105 (scroll down to see 2nd horse):
http://www.kapellenphotography.com/wec-august-24-25/

Dressage show pics from June 1 #726 (scroll down about 1/2 way down pg):
http://www.kapellenphotography.com/wec-june-1/

[acottongim]

It would be good to know her bloodlines so that you don’t double up too close on bloodlines. ;).

The ata ssa is going on till Fri btw. :). Your mare is lovely.

[danichilders]

[QUOTE=acottongim;7423495]
It would be good to know her bloodlines so that you don’t double up too close on bloodlines. ;).

The ata ssa is going on till Fri btw. :). Your mare is lovely.[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, forgot that in my rambles… Sorry!

Her sire is Gaellant Quest who is trakehner/hanoverian cross out of Gaellant (sire) and Hamelchen’s Heidi (dam out of Tizian).

Her dam Adajia is full Trakehner and out of Inselkönig (sire) and Aria (dam out of Wildfeuer).

Any info anyone can give me would be fabulous! I’ve read a few things through Google but personal experiences or extra tidbits would be great.

[acottongim]

Ah I had a Tizian daughter. I LOVED her. Nice big (tall and bodied) mare with a fantastic temperament. Such a sweet girl. I got her later in her life. She gave me one nice colt by my stallion and was 5 mo preg net with the next foal and she died. :(. Her kids (she had others by other stallions) did really well though with their AO.

[Molly_Malone]

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10997184

that’s old blood

I don’t think there are any current Trakehner stallions who have any of that blood so I think you’re good to go from that point of view. Most Trakehners are all rounders - that’s what the breed was developed as, as an all around riding horse. Maren might have more insight for you on bloodlines.

You might want to avoid Hilton GS who is known to add height. To be honest, you could start with deciding if you want fresh or frozen, and start narrowing down from there and then really pick your mare apart for faults you don’t want to double up on.

[danichilders]

That’s too bad you lost her, she sounds like a gem. My mares dam was exactly like that too, big beautiful and an absolute sweetheart too. I’m so thankfully my mare has the same temperament. So I’m hoping she carries that onto her foals too.

For my mares first breeding experience what is expected of me prior to the actual…task? Also, would fresh be more reliable? I’m seriously interested in 1/2 the horses listed on the ATA auction, such a hard choice but am doing tons of research. I’m suddenly addicted to everything Trakehner I never realized their history, athletic ability and adaptability. It’s very exciting! Thanks for all you help and your stallion is adorable! I’ve listed and starred him on my list too.

[danichilders]

[QUOTE=Molly Malone;7424176]
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10997184

that’s old blood

I don’t think there are any current Trakehner stallions who have any of that blood so I think you’re good to go from that point of view. Most Trakehners are all rounders - that’s what the breed was developed as, as an all around riding horse. Maren might have more insight for you on bloodlines.

You might want to avoid Hilton GS who is known to add height. To be honest, you could start with deciding if you want fresh or frozen, and start narrowing down from there and then really pick your mare apart for faults you don’t want to double up on.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info! I’m not sure if her old blood is good or bad…sounds interesting though. Its hard to get info on them. I also never realized the dressage history her family has had but it’s very neat. So I’ll nix Hilton from my list, do you know any stallions that have the ability to add bone structure?

[TKR]

If your mare has a 1/2 Hanoverian sire, can she get Trakehner papers? I didn’t think anything but purebred TK’s, TB or Arabians were allowed in the registry. Incidently, as an FYI – the correct terminology for a stallion as a sire is “by” whatever stallion and “out of” whatever dam. Your mare is lovely and I hope you find the right match. You might look at the compact, smaller stallions or those who don’t necessarily produce alot of height or leg.
PennyG

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=TKR;7424928]
If your mare has a 1/2 Hanoverian sire, can she get Trakehner papers? I didn’t think anything but purebred TK’s, TB or Arabians were allowed in the registry. Incidently, as an FYI – the correct terminology for a stallion as a sire is “by” whatever stallion and “out of” whatever dam. Your mare is lovely and I hope you find the right match. You might look at the compact, smaller stallions or those who don’t necessarily produce alot of height or leg.
PennyG[/QUOTE]

She can’t be registered Trakehner, she would only be eligible for the Appendix book. With ATA, Appendix is basically full registration - Appendix Trakehners are still eligible for awards etc. I don’t know if you can register a foal out of an Appendix mare, though. If anything, it would only be eligible for Appendix registration as well: with Hanoverian blood, it will never be able to be registered and approved into the Official Studbook.

You might consider the young stallion Velluto, or his sire Schiffon. I don’t know if Velluto has any foals on the ground yet - this year might be his first foal crop - but he is a compact little guy with exceptional movement. I know the inspectors raved about his movement at his inspection. He doesn’t look to be too tall either.

[Molly_Malone]

Divine Intervention has D papers - she is a registered Trakehner in the D book. her foals by Trakehner stallions would also get D papers - however, their foals by Trakehner stallions would get full papers (15/16th Trakehners are eligible for full papers - I think I have that right - possibly it is 31/32ths though)

At any rate, looking at the fresh stallions available in the ATA SSA, the only ones I’d avoid are Ballzauber (he throws big foals, tall and big boned) and Stiletto and Inamorato (both do better with some xx blood in the mix). Virginian Sky and Sea Accounts can’t be used to with non-Trakehner mares to get papers. I’d also avoid the “new kids on he block” (Ehrentanz, Feiner Prinz, Heart Throb, Velluto and Semper Fidelis) because you don’t know what your mare produces, so go with a stallion who has a lot of offspring on the ground so you can see them (and their dams).

If you are not breeding this year, you have lots of time to do your research and remember, the SSA will be different next year! Also try and go to the ATA convention in Ohio and have a look at a good many of the stallions in person

Good Luck!

[danichilders]

Wow, you guys are the best! Yes, my mare is registered ATA as her mother was registered ATA but I’m not sure what registry type is as it was so long ago and previously the registration to me wasn’t a big deal. The more I’m researching the more I’m understanding that I truly want to take my time with decisions and choices for her. So I’m going to take this year to do some major research and allow myself to become obsessed with this breed and understand more about registration, approvals, and what is best for my mare. Then hopefully breed her next year. I knew it would be complex but the last thing I want to do is rush into it so THANK YOU everyone for helping me make this decision.

So if I have this correct, I’m not really looking to breed for investment ideas, I’m really looking to breed to get another top notch horse like my mare. However, say a fabulous stallion comes out of it, what is the likelihood that he stay a stallion as Gaeshan’s 1/4 Hanoverian? I want to look at the whole picture as I wouldn’t mind having a stallion, as I’m seriously looking at a few of the stallions like Horalas and Hirtentanz however, I’m utterly in LOVE with Oskar too. However if I’m unable to approve/register him I want to know this going into it, any help again would be wonderful! I like the idea of attending the ATA convention as it’s not to far of a drive and it would give me an abundunce of knowledge in one location. Thanks for that tip!

Molly Malone - Thank you for the checks off the list, this helps me narrow down my search as I have a TON of stallions listed and all the ones you listed were on that list haha!

Tradewind- I’ve watched videos of Velluto as an old friend is his trainer and he’s adorable too but might be too young for at least this first round for me, I’m definitely going to keep an eye on him though. He sure is cute and moves beautifully!

[Molly_Malone]

A colt could never be approved Trakehner - however, he is perfectly eligible to be approved in any other registry based on performance and if his bloodlines are acceptable - you’d have to check with the Hanoverian people - you have to have 5 generations (I think) of approved stallions on the top. If you are seriously going this route then there is one other thing to bear in mind. An approved Trakehner stallion is not necessarily approved by any other registry - if the stallion was approved in Germany by the Verband, then they will be, but unless the ATA approved stallion has also been presented to another registry for approval (by performance, either the 70DT or competition) a colt by that stallion will not be eligible to be presented for stallion inspection.

I hope that makes sense. Approval is Not the same as registration.

[TwinGates]

Some good info but also a few points of clarification necessary. Virginian Sky x non-TK mare = no papers is NOT correct. Breeding to him is same as any other non-TB approved stallion. Ballzauber big foals?? Average-size based on what I’ve seen in Germany and also disagree Stiletto needs blood. He’s 1/4 Arabian so refinement (plus movement and jump) is already in there.

Def understand why you might extend the advice on newer stallions but cannot make that blanket statement when you consider the outstanding dam lines. The old-time breeders will tell you this is THE most important part of the pedigree and knowing several of the dam lines well in these new kids you s/b able to predict with fair degree of certainty what they will produce. (Now the SIZE argument holds in both Semper Fidelis and Ehrentanz; both big boys from dam lines & dam sires with size and bone). That leaves Feiner Prinz, who’s out of a Cornus (one of THE most under-utilized stallions in the breed; sire of exceptional daughters) daughter. In addition to an impeccable dam line, this colt also carries valuable Kirow lines thru his sire.

[TwinGates]

Some good info but also a few points of clarification necessary. Virginian Sky x non-TK mare = no papers is NOT correct. Breeding to him is same as any other non-TB approved stallion. Ballzauber big foals?? Average-size based on what I’ve seen in Germany and also disagree Stiletto needs blood. He’s 1/4 Arabian so refinement (plus movement and jump) is already in there.

Def understand why you might extend the advice on newer stallions but cannot make that blanket statement when you consider the outstanding dam lines. The old-time breeders will tell you this is THE most important part of the pedigree and knowing several of the dam lines well in these new kids you s/b able to predict with fair degree of certainty what they will produce. (Now the SIZE argument holds in both Semper Fidelis and Ehrentanz; both big boys from dam lines & dam sires with size and bone). That leaves Feiner Prinz, who’s out of a Cornus (one of THE most under-utilized stallions in the breed; sire of exceptional daughters) daughter. In addition to an impeccable dam line, this colt also carries valuable Kirow lines thru his sire.

[Molly_Malone]

Kim - can you clarify about Virginian Sky - I thought he had to be bred to OSB mares for foals to have full papers, he couldn’t be bred to PSB mares (and in this case the foals wouldn’t qualify for D papers either) ? I am talking strictly Trakehner papers here, not any other registry - I know Sky is approved elsewhere - but you’re saying he can be bred to PSB mares? Do the foals get A or B or C papers?

I stand corrected on Ballzauber - I am going by the Ballzauber x Tanzdiva colt I had, a mare with a lot of bone and that boy is massive in all respects. We’ll have to agree to disagree on Stiletto and whilst I don’t disagree with the dam line statement at all, I think it would be advisable to know the dam lines on both sides of the pedigree and be an experienced breeder with those dam lines to breed two “maidens” - whilst you can predict, you can’t know for sure if a stallion will stamp his get, and for a one off breeding (not a program) I think lowering your odds (by breeding to something you are pretty sure of) is a sensible way forward.

None of what I have said is a reflection on any of the stallions btw - the very fact of them being approved speaks volumes.

[TwinGates]

Sure, no problem. Virginian Sky in terms of % blood is actually quite like Windfall Pg. Both out of full TB dams and with a ton of AA thru sire line. Both foaled and registered full TK (likely branded, too) in Germany as both dams approved by the TK Verband. W approved in Germany, VS here in US but where approved doesn’t matter as both were OSB due status of their dams.

Apply same rules in ATA registry for VS foals as you would for Windfall foals.