I’m not disputing your post (I know from your Shayney posts that you’re a caring and experienced horse person😁) but it brings up a point that I’ve read about.
I may be wrong but I believe sedation doesn’t remove fear or worry in a horse or dog or cat, it just reduces the ability to react to these emotions. Which is another reason I don’t think it’s ever ok to dope a horse at a show.
I’ve read that too… but I’m not sure how much I believe it. I think it dulls EVERYthing - my Old Man basically passes out on 1/4 dose because he’s already so chill. That’s just my personal experience/opinion.
That said, a follow up question - how about pain? Sedation is used for lots of painful procedures without second thought - it would be pretty sick (but still, sometimes necessary) if we were paralyzing a horse instead of numbing their senses.
I couldn’t agree more about the pain question. I can only speak for myself, but I can’t think of a time when my vet has done any work with my horses that either caused pain or was necessary because there was already pain, without using both sedation and an IV painkiller like banamine. That would be unacceptable to me, and hopefully to everyone.
I have not seen sedation used for painful procedures by a vet without also using some type of pain relief. Think stitches: horse was sedated to allow the vet to work more effectively, but the area was also numbed with a local.
Joint injections come to mind. I’ve never seen a local used for those.
This is my experience too.
Wow! Then you need a different vet.
Well, I’ll inform Purdue they’ve been doing hock injections all wrong. Hell, a lot of vets will do those with just a twitch!
When I’ve had joint injections myself, there is some local anesthetic mixed in with the cortisone or HA or whatever they are injecting. Don’t know if it’s the same with horses - I’ve only had one horse’s hocks done and never thought to ask.
If humans are anything to go by it’s not really a painful procedure, just uncomfortable if that makes sense. The primary sensation is just one of pressure
There were a few adult ammys of this variety at my previous barn. One of them bought a 6yo Western QH mare who was as broke as could be. If she so much as flicked an ear, her owner panicked. One day Miss Maresy had an uncharacteristic spook because someone had left their vest tossed over a jump standard after taking it off mid-ride. Owner flipped out, screaming that it was unacceptable that the horse spooked. I tried to gently reason with her that it wasn’t an unusual thing to have happen, especially in those first few chilly fall days when lots of horses tend to be a little fresh and silly. That fell on deaf ears. She ended up selling the mare, which was probably for the best. Timid and in search of a robot is a hard combo.
I’m far from the bravest rider, but I firmly believe that “sh*t happens” with even the least reactive horse, and if someone isn’t prepared to deal with that, they’re probably in the wrong sport. My 7yo OTTB is one of the least spooky horses I’ve ever sat on. We were hacking around in the outdoor a couple of weeks ago - it was a beautiful sunny morning but only about 35 degrees. Got through the first 30 minutes of our ride and he was good as gold. One minute we were trotting along on a loose rein and the next I was in the dirt. No warning, no tension, just saw a ghost and promptly spooked sideways out from underneath me. I sat there for a second trying to figure out exactly what had just happened. My young horse had already settled down and applied himself to knocking over nearby jump standards with his nose by the time I dusted myself off.
Sometimes sh*t just happens, and no amount of drugging or lunging will prevent it. I’d be more afraid of a big sideways spook from a drugged horse who may not be fully aware of his feet, than I am of falling off because of something like that.
By the time it kicks in the injection is over. It might provide pain relief afterwards, but not for the procedure itself.
We are talking about making the procedure itself pain free.
I was thinking about joint injections too actually. I don’t think my vet used a local either, but sedation (this was for stifles). The only thing I could think is that to get the local deep enough would involve an injection comparable to the joint injection itself, so it wouldn’t make it worth it?
I’m just thinking of how much novocaine shots have hurt at the dentist, even with a topical numbing cream. At that point, maybe the joint injection itself isn’t much worse so its a bit redundant to do a painful shot just to numb for one more shot.
I’d be so curious to have a vet weigh in.
And I can’t speak for horses but my personal experience is that the procedure itself is not really painful. Sedation to make sure the horse stands still seems appropriate. Pain relief wouldn’t hurt, but I don’t believe it’s necessary
Very true. Some procedures are likely worth the local “novocaine” and other are so brief that they aren’t.
My Old Man stood sedated and with a twitch for a hip block - obviously you can’t administer pain relief for an 8" needle in it’s entirety. He is a saint.
First of all please understand that USEF only has jurisdiction over shows that are USEF recognized and/or sanctioned. Schooling shows that are not recognized /sanctioned by USEF cannot use USEF rules. They can use them as guidelines for their shows but must not use their rules in the shows rules (copyright). That’s the whole point of having a recognized show. And there are some calming agents that won’t test and some things you may innocently give your horse that could test positive - like one of my horse’s favorite treats- Cool Ranch Doritos or a kid sharing their bottle of Coca-Cola.
There are some calming agents that don’t contain banned substances. Some people seem to think that a person giving their horse Ace before a competition or fox hunting (very common) is akin to what a vet gives to sedate your horse. There are times/situations where a trainer feels a calming agent may (emphasis on may) be appropriate which also means the appropriate level/dose (minimum to achieve desired results vs over medicate) IMO there’s also a difference between using a calming agent for nervous horse (some need it to get on the trailer) and a BNT using a calming agent for a horse they’ve been campaigning for the last 2 years.
Wondering - do they use local pain relief for spinal taps? Again, I think it’s really hard to go that deep - you’re talking a 6" needle or better. Or is it just sedation?
And there’s a big difference between “calming agents” like Chill or magnesium, and drugging a horse to increase the chances of winning a ribbon at a show. Doesn’t matter if it’s a national championship or a local fair. Cheating is still cheating, period.
they use anesthetic for humans I would think the use would also be appropriate for any animal in a similar situation. Shoot when I had a tooth extracted and implant done I opted for twilight sedation. Horse recently cut himself which required stitches. Was I upset vet sedated him to stitch him up. Um no. For his comfort, as well as his and the vets safety.
Sedation and analgesic are what is the discussion here, stemming from “they can hear/see/feel everything while sedated, but are unable to react”, which is something I’ve heard before.
In a nutshell - is sedation more paralyzing than it is relieving stress?
@Ghazzu I’d love your thoughts here, it’s an interesting topic.
BigMama1 that’s pretty much what I believe I said. It’s quite common among fox hunters and you can pretty much rest assured that lots of parade horses are given a little something something.
In human medicine, my understanding is sedation can be used for both for stress relief and for chemical restraint. So you might sedate someone at their request for something like a dental procedure, or you sedate someone as a chemical restraint like an intubated patient in the ICU.
A quick google search has benzodiazepines (which include Xanax, Klonopin, valium, etc) as a common drug of choice for chemical restraint.
Ironically, I travel with a friend who is terrified of flying and has a klonopin prescription for that reason. I watched the adrenaline of a sprint through JFK to make a connection completely blow through any sedating effects.
My guess is that the overall effects are both paralyzing and stress relief, and trying to separate it out is a bit futile.
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