My gelding is currently ridden in a single joint full cheek with keepers. He seems to prefer the stability of that bit and likes the single joint. Although he is pretty well broke (rides well off my seat and legs MOST of the time, good with lateral work, beginning neck reining, etc). That being said, sometimes if he’s extra fresh he has a tendency to want to ignore me and I have to use my hands a lot more than I like. I’d like a bit that’s a small step up from a snaffle to help me not have to fight him so much on those days. Also as we progress to neck reining most of the time, I do want a curb for that. I think a bit with little to no gag would be best for him. I was looking at this one but am totally open to suggestions!
[QUOTE=Rusty15;8320748]
My gelding is currently ridden in a single joint full cheek with keepers. He seems to prefer the stability of that bit and likes the single joint. Although he is pretty well broke (rides well off my seat and legs MOST of the time, good with lateral work, beginning neck reining, etc). That being said, sometimes if he’s extra fresh he has a tendency to want to ignore me and I have to use my hands a lot more than I like. I’d like a bit that’s a small step up from a snaffle to help me not have to fight him so much on those days. Also as we progress to neck reining most of the time, I do want a curb for that. I think a bit with little to no gag would be best for him. I was looking at this one but am totally open to suggestions![/QUOTE]
Lets define clearly what a snaffle is, a bit that you have the reins attached to the sides of the bit so you have a direct action with the horse’s mouth.
A curb bit is one where you have leverage, not direct contact, with a shank and curb that engages when you use the reins attached to the end of the shank.
When you have shanks with a broken mouthpiece, as in your link, your bit is not any more either, it is not working with direct contact and the shanks are not, with a light touch, applying leverage, but twisting around this and that way.
If you grab any bit you are considering using in one hand, as if your hand was a horse’s mouth, then hold the cheek pieces over that hand with the other hand and have someone behind you work the reins for you, both of you walking around, you will get a very good idea how that bit works in a horse’s mouth.
If you do so with a snaffle, you will feel how that snaffle works to communicate.
You will see that when the “rider” behind you uses the reins independently, you still get directions that make sense to you, because you are getting direct communication from the reins to the rings and that is where you feel the communication.
When you do the same with a straight mouth proper curb, you can see that, when the rider uses the reins together, you mostly get indications of stopping and letting go on, hard to indicate to you to move right or left.
When using the reins independently, the signals you are getting are inconclusive, the bit twists in the mouth and you have to guess at what your “rider” wants you to do.
That is why curb bits are used for horses that are finely tuned and trained to the level that they will work with very little bit aid for other than stopping and are best used with a drapey rein, so the reins themselves can help indicate there is a signal coming before the bit leverage engages.
You can do the same with a snaffle, once the horse is trained that far, but the difference is that a curb bit, by it’s leverage alone, is able to support the horse’s collection and balance better than a snaffle, that has a more directional action than picking the horse up, once the horse has learned what you want.
True curb bits with leverage action, used properly are like power steering, a light touch has a larger effect than direct reining.
Now, try the same with a curb that has a broken mouthpiece and try to figure what the “rider” behind you is telling you.
Yes, those bits, that so, so many use, are utterly confusing to the horse and thru your hand to you, twisting around every which way by the merest effect of the reins, takes a smart horse or human to learn to ignore those and start mental gymnastics of try and guess what the rider really wants, maybe going by other aids, like what the seat and legs are saying or what was asked for before.
Those bits have a curb chain, but it doesn’t engage, the shanks twist too much for it.
Since you don’t have a direct connection to the mouth with those long shanks and the bit not having a straight mouthpiece to support it in one piece, your reins are not affecting the bit right by the mouth in a steady manner, but flopping all over.
As with what bit to use, the last word is in your that works for you and that one horse.
All theory can go out the window if it works for you, but keep trying different ones, as something may just work better.
[QUOTE=Rusty15;8320748]
My gelding is currently ridden in a single joint full cheek with keepers.
I’d like a bit that’s a small step up from a snaffle
I was looking at this one but am totally open to suggestions! [/QUOTE]
For a step up from a snaffle, I don’t know that I would choose that bit.
For myself personally, if you are going to be direct reining in a curb bit, I prefer the curb to have a double-jointed mouthpiece.
And I try to find something with as short of a shank as possible, with curve in the shank. Maybe something along these lines.
On a side note, you do not have to ride in a curb to neck rein your horse. The bit you use while neck reining is irrelevant. In fact, you don’t need a bit at all to neck rein (just a neck rope). Neck reining comes from your leg and seat cues AND from the rein making contact with the horse’s neck.
I’ve direct reined in curb bits for as long as I can remember. Yes, there are certain bits that you don’t want to direct rein in, such as this one (because it doesn’t allow any independent shank action), but there are many curb bits out there that are perfectly fine to direct rein with, and the horse is anything but confused.
Wow, thanks for the detailed answers guys! We are still FAR from being able to neck rein all alone but it is my main goal because I’m trying to start mounted shooting on him. The problem is sometimes he’s too forward and will ignore me and the snaffle and I have to use my hands way more than I want. We do lots of half halts and maneuvers to keep his mind busy and his body balanced, but I have to PULL to get him to notice a half halt, rather than a gentle squeeze of the reins that my half halts usually are. His old owner rode him in a twisted wire snaffle and a smooth mouth jr. cowhorse so my bit is milder than he’s used to, but I prefer to use only smooth mouth bits.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?352228-Transitioning-to-curb-bit
I got lots of helpful advice when I asked a similar question.
The bit that you linked is a version of a tom thumb. It is a disliked bit for all the reasons Bluey stated. I’d definitely steer clear of it.
It’s good you mentioned your goal is neck reining for mounted shooting. Neck reining comes in several flavors. Since you’re not looking for the drapey-reined show ring version, that does make a difference.
I don’t have a lot of suggestions because there are many others with a lot more experience than me, but I would recommend that you have a good transition plan. I used a halter with reins snapped to the rings underneath the headstall the first time I went to a curb bit, and I was happy to have those halter reins and some noseband (i.e., hackamore type) control as my horse sorted it out. My horse had also been ridden in a Pelham so was used to curb shanks and curb chain action. Obviously mounted shooting with 4 reins is not going to be an option but it could be part of the transition plan.
I bought a finished western pleasure horse and when I was riding him in his curb bit, I found there were times that I needed to use 2 hands to make some corrections (lifting a dropped shoulder, straightening, fixing a counter bend, etc.) and many curb bits are not conducive to that. Robart makes some bits that allow you to isolate a side when using two hands, but the bit acts as a single unit when riding one-handed. I found them to be very useful. Here’s an example:
http://www.amazon.com/Robart-IW104-Pinchless-Rafter-Bit/dp/B002HIZ6BG/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1442588842&sr=8-23&keywords=robart+pinchless
In your situation, a myler combination bit (combined hackamore noseband and bit) could be useful, since it adds another point of control.
There is so much to be learned about bits and bitting. You really need to think about how the bit is going to work in the horse’s mouth when you pick up one or both reins and pull back. In my limited experience, I find that attempting to neck rein in any bit that has a single-jointed mouthpiece, whether it is a snaffle or has shanks, is confusing. That’s not to say it can’t be done. My western pleasure horse can and will neck rein in a snaffle, but he does it a lot better with a solid (mullen style) mouthpiece.
[QUOTE=meaty ogre;8321147]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?352228-Transitioning-to-curb-bit
I got lots of helpful advice when I asked a similar question.
The bit that you linked is a version of a tom thumb. It is a disliked bit for all the reasons Bluey stated. I’d definitely steer clear of it.
It’s good you mentioned your goal is neck reining for mounted shooting. Neck reining comes in several flavors. Since you’re not looking for the drapey-reined show ring version, that does make a difference.
I don’t have a lot of suggestions because there are many others with a lot more experience than me, but I would recommend that you have a good transition plan. I used a halter with reins snapped to the rings underneath the headstall the first time I went to a curb bit, and I was happy to have those halter reins and some noseband (i.e., hackamore type) control as my horse sorted it out. My horse had also been ridden in a Pelham so was used to curb shanks and curb chain action. Obviously mounted shooting with 4 reins is not going to be an option but it could be part of the transition plan.
I bought a finished western pleasure horse and when I was riding him in his curb bit, I found there were times that I needed to use 2 hands to make some corrections (lifting a dropped shoulder, straightening, fixing a counter bend, etc.) and many curb bits are not conducive to that. Robart makes some bits that allow you to isolate a side when using two hands, but the bit acts as a single unit when riding one-handed. I found them to be very useful. Here’s an example:
http://www.amazon.com/Robart-IW104-Pinchless-Rafter-Bit/dp/B002HIZ6BG/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1442588842&sr=8-23&keywords=robart+pinchless
In your situation, a myler combination bit (combined hackamore noseband and bit) could be useful, since it adds another point of control.
There is so much to be learned about bits and bitting. You really need to think about how the bit is going to work in the horse’s mouth when you pick up one or both reins and pull back. In my limited experience, I find that attempting to neck rein in any bit that has a single-jointed mouthpiece, whether it is a snaffle or has shanks, is confusing. That’s not to say it can’t be done. My western pleasure horse can and will neck rein in a snaffle, but he does it a lot better with a solid (mullen style) mouthpiece.[/QUOTE]
Yes he will definitely NEVER EVER EVER be a western pleasure type horse lol. He’s a good, level headed guy but he is bred to RUN. Now he’s very picky with bits and absolutely HATES like H A T E S mullen mouth bits. I tried a mullen mouth loose ring on him a couple weeks ago and I didn’t even get him out of the cross ties he was having such a fit about it. He really likes the single joint (go figure). I did try him in a myler eggbutt with a low port but he was REALLY heavy to my hand in that bit and that’s not really like him. I’m not absolutely set on having a curb bit, just whatever will give me a little more control on those days I know I’m going to need it.
[QUOTE=Bluey;8320882]
Lets define clearly what a snaffle is, a bit that you have the reins attached to the sides of the bit so you have a direct action with the horse’s mouth.
A curb bit is one where you have leverage, not direct contact, with a shank and curb that engages when you use the reins attached to the end of the shank.
When you have shanks with a broken mouthpiece, as in your link, your bit is not any more either, it is not working with direct contact and the shanks are not, with a light touch, applying leverage, but twisting around this and that way.
If you grab any bit you are considering using in one hand, as if your hand was a horse’s mouth, then hold the cheek pieces over that hand with the other hand and have someone behind you work the reins for you, both of you walking around, you will get a very good idea how that bit works in a horse’s mouth.
If you do so with a snaffle, you will feel how that snaffle works to communicate.
You will see that when the “rider” behind you uses the reins independently, you still get directions that make sense to you, because you are getting direct communication from the reins to the rings and that is where you feel the communication.
When you do the same with a straight mouth proper curb, you can see that, when the rider uses the reins together, you mostly get indications of stopping and letting go on, hard to indicate to you to move right or left.
When using the reins independently, the signals you are getting are inconclusive, the bit twists in the mouth and you have to guess at what your “rider” wants you to do.
That is why curb bits are used for horses that are finely tuned and trained to the level that they will work with very little bit aid for other than stopping and are best used with a drapey rein, so the reins themselves can help indicate there is a signal coming before the bit leverage engages.
You can do the same with a snaffle, once the horse is trained that far, but the difference is that a curb bit, by it’s leverage alone, is able to support the horse’s collection and balance better than a snaffle, that has a more directional action than picking the horse up, once the horse has learned what you want.
True curb bits with leverage action, used properly are like power steering, a light touch has a larger effect than direct reining.
Now, try the same with a curb that has a broken mouthpiece and try to figure what the “rider” behind you is telling you.
Yes, those bits, that so, so many use, are utterly confusing to the horse and thru your hand to you, twisting around every which way by the merest effect of the reins, takes a smart horse or human to learn to ignore those and start mental gymnastics of try and guess what the rider really wants, maybe going by other aids, like what the seat and legs are saying or what was asked for before.
Those bits have a curb chain, but it doesn’t engage, the shanks twist too much for it.
Since you don’t have a direct connection to the mouth with those long shanks and the bit not having a straight mouthpiece to support it in one piece, your reins are not affecting the bit right by the mouth in a steady manner, but flopping all over.
As with what bit to use, the last word is in your that works for you and that one horse.
All theory can go out the window if it works for you, but keep trying different ones, as something may just work better.[/QUOTE]
I’m confused. The original post talks about a full cheek with keepers.
I do not think it is talking about a shanked snaffle or Tom Thumb or Argentine, but a simple snaffle with full cheeks, no curb, no leverage. Just full cheeks.
But I agree with you on shanked leverage jointed bits. Horrible bastards. Not because they are severe or hurt, but because they work like crap in a horses mouth.
[QUOTE=Wirt;8321269]
I’m confused. The original post talks about a full cheek with keepers.
I do not think it is talking about a shanked snaffle or Tom Thumb or Argentine, but a simple snaffle with full cheeks, no curb, no leverage. Just full cheeks.
But I agree with you on shanked leverage jointed bits. Horrible bastards. Not because they are severe or hurt, but because they work like crap in a horses mouth.[/QUOTE]
There was a link in the OP with one of those argentinian “snaffles”, asking if that was a good “transitional” bit from that snaffle to a regular curb?
Maybe I misunderstood the OP?
I will say, to anyone out there, try on your hand several different bits.
Watch what the mechanics of each one is with someone on the reins behind your back, so you can have an idea of what is happening on your horse’s mouth with each one of those bits.
Sure helps understand how each one works and doesn’t work and why.
Then try it on your horse and some times it works, others doesn’t work so well and you will have more of an idea, can figure why they do or don’t for that particular horse and what to try next.
A skilled rider can make do with any the horse has on it’s head, but some do work considerably better than others, and some horses prefer some over others, so why not accommodate everyone by making it as easy and comfortable as possibly?
Here, in the OP’s boots, I would see what others in that discipline are finding works better and expand it to what others use also in all other such speed events.
If I were to go barrel racing, I would see what works best for them and then see if that makes sense and also works best for whatever horse I am barrel racing.
In speed events, it seems the more exact control can make the difference in those tens of seconds from winning to some times last.
It is very competitive, at least around here.
That little more control in a check or turn can be that difference, why the right kind of gear is so important, along with everything else falling into place, it all counts.
Rules of thumb work as a start, then we tweak them for our purposes.
I hope the OP has a good start now with what has been posted.
[QUOTE=Bluey;8321287]
There was a link in the OP with one of those argentinian “snaffles”, asking if that was a good “transitional” bit from that snaffle to a regular curb?
Maybe I misunderstood the OP?
I will say, to anyone out there, try on your hand several different bits.
Watch what the mechanics of each one is with someone on the reins behind your back, so you can have an idea of what is happening on your horse’s mouth with each one of those bits.
Sure helps understand how each one works and doesn’t work and why.
Then try it on your horse and some times it works, others doesn’t work so well and you will have more of an idea, can figure why they do or don’t for that particular horse and what to try next.
A skilled rider can make do with any the horse has on it’s head, but some do work considerably better than others, and some horses prefer some over others, so why not accommodate everyone by making it as easy and comfortable as possibly?
Here, in the OP’s boots, I would see what others in that discipline are finding works better and expand it to what others use also in all other such speed events.
If I were to go barrel racing, I would see what works best for them and then see if that makes sense and also works best for whatever horse I am barrel racing.
In speed events, it seems the more exact control can make the difference in those tens of seconds from winning to some times last.
It is very competitive, at least around here.
That little more control in a check or turn can be that difference, why the right kind of gear is so important, along with everything else falling into place, it all counts.
Rules of thumb work as a start, then we tweak them for our purposes.
I hope the OP has a good start now with what has been posted.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the full cheek is what he has now. It does not always afford me enough control though, which is why I made this post. I have seen just about every bit and hackamore you can imagine at the mounted shooting events I’ve gone to, so it seems very individual.
Would maybe straight up swapping to a bitless/hackamore be an option? I know a horse that goes way saner in his hackamore than his loose ring snaffle. Just an idea!
[QUOTE=tikkamasala;8321333]
Would maybe straight up swapping to a bitless/hackamore be an option? I know a horse that goes way saner in his hackamore than his loose ring snaffle. Just an idea![/QUOTE]
I have ridden him in a halter and a sidepull (because he is VERY picky with bits) and while he liked them, neither afforded me the control I needed at all. He’s not a horse that will just trot and canter around with a loose rein at whatever speed I put him, his first instinct is to drop his shoulder, stick his nose out, and speed up. I work REALLY REALLY REALLY hard to prevent that but he does his darndest to ignore the sidepull or the snaffle.
Have you thought about ground driving and long lining him?
The problem is, there is very little professional education on making a bridle horse.
There is a resurgence as of late.
If you trace the evolution of the hundreds of combo bits nowadays claiming this and that out there, you start to realize it was when leverage became the norm, and not the balance and feel of a bit. The snaffle became the bit of choice in starting, which is fine, but leaves a big gab in what to do next. There is no real transition.
The transition used to be from the hackamore to the bit. A spade bit. There was a logical progression from the horse learning almost everything he needed to do in the hackamore, then the transition was to two rein him, using a smaller bosal underneath the bridle, while the horse learned to pack the spade. The neck rein developed more or less automatically, since you were now riding the horse one handed, with the reins very close together. You still help the horse with a direct rein in doing this, but it is very slight. After a year or so, the horse just goes “straight up”
In my opinion, this system in developing a western reined horse has not been improved upon. The bits you see now are shortcuts and a result of the hackamore system being bypassed for easier and quicker. After a while, this new normal is a far cry from what used to be a better finished horse.
Sometimes you just need to experiment until you find one that works. I have a rubbermaid crate full of bits from past experiments. But when you find one that works, its a wonderful feeling. I personally like hinged or correction bits. I found a good article that may be helpful: www.toddmartin.net/tips/training-tips/a-little-bit-more-on-bits/
OP, maybe your horse is not really broke in the face if he is that picky about bits. You have not mentioned anything about his mouth or teeth that would give an physical explanation for his pickiness. From your descriptions, it does not sound like you are getting much cooperation from him on a regular basis, which indicates a training issue to me. I would NOT transition to a curb bit until his is broke broke broke in a snaffle or direct rein bit. I understand that he has good days and bad days, but as your training progresses, you should have few “bad” days. I do not hesitate to do ground work if my horse does not appear ready to focus, and I do not hesitate to get off and do ground work if I hit a bad spot while riding. I find that the "bad’ spots tell me that there is a hole somewhere that I need to address - either my horse does not understand me, or what I am asking the horse to do is hard enough that evasion becomes a better choice, so I need to back up a bit and figure it out. All your rides should be good rides, you should not be fighting with your horse.
[QUOTE=Flash44;8321439]
OP, maybe your horse is not really broke in the face if he is that picky about bits. You have not mentioned anything about his mouth or teeth that would give an physical explanation for his pickiness. From your descriptions, it does not sound like you are getting much cooperation from him on a regular basis, which indicates a training issue to me. I would NOT transition to a curb bit until his is broke broke broke in a snaffle or direct rein bit. I understand that he has good days and bad days, but as your training progresses, you should have few “bad” days. I do not hesitate to do ground work if my horse does not appear ready to focus, and I do not hesitate to get off and do ground work if I hit a bad spot while riding. I find that the "bad’ spots tell me that there is a hole somewhere that I need to address - either my horse does not understand me, or what I am asking the horse to do is hard enough that evasion becomes a better choice, so I need to back up a bit and figure it out. All your rides should be good rides, you should not be fighting with your horse.[/QUOTE]
He is UTD on dental (with a real dentist) and has no outstanding issues that would prevent him from wearing a bit. I haven’t had him long. He is 7 this year and had almost an entire year off. I’ve just been riding him consistently for about a month now. He and I are still getting back into shape so I lunge him before I ride so he can get his bucks and snorts out. Then we work on basic walk/trot/canter stuff. He “knows” his lateral work but is rusty from all that time off so he’s improving with his leg yields, backing, shoulder in/out, turn on haunches, turn on forehand, reverse arc, etc. At the walk, his neck reining is SOLID. When we trot, I can get him moving out nicely and round in the bridle but I have to ride with contact as you would on, say, a dressage horse. Which is fine but he also needs to neck rein. If I attempt to neck rein (and he has done it at the trot and canter with his old owner) he ignores it completely, sticks his nose out, and trots around really strung out. I understand he’s still gaining strength but I really don’t know if that’s what is causing it entirely. Same story at the canter. When we canter he just wants to GO. He’s not hot or high strung but is ALL running blood and especially with the cooler weather and a good breeze he gets excited. He likes to drop onto his front end and lean in to his turns. Again, if I ride him 2 handed I can get him somewhat collected but he tries to brace and go. I have to do very strong half halts practically every other stride and really don’t like having to pull for him to even notice the half halt. My dilemma is, how can I fix any holes in his training, if I can’t get him to pay attention to rein (and other) aids? He was ridden with slightly more severe bits (twisted wire snaffle and jr.cowhorse) by his old owner so I tried taking him back to a gentler bit but he just seems to take advantage of it.
ETA- The only other bit I own is a Sweet 6 twisted wire dogbone and I’m going to put it on him JUST as an experiment to see what he does for comparison. I unfortunately am a college student and do not have the $$ to buy a million bits just to try.
If he isn’t neck reining in a snaffle, he’s not ready to neck rein in a curb. Perfectly possible to neck rein in a snaffle.
Not the bit, it’s the training behind it. Nothing you’ve described in the post above is a bit problem, they’re all “lack of correctly taught aid” problems.
You say he is picky with bits. Are you riding him more than once or just a few minutes if he fusses with them? I don’t think folks always give a bit a fair trial.
If he is totally not responsive, that bit is obviously not working! Ha ha, it happens sometimes. Other times it might take a couple rides for him to get more used to how the bit feels when reins ask for things, get horse cooperating.
Just going a different route here but you say he gets strong and sometimes you have to pull on him before he notices you…why don’t you do something to disengage him and make him focus on you? Pulling on him is basically just fighting with him and we know we can’t win a tug of war with a horse. The whole idea behind how we train is to disengage and refocus when they do something wrong instead of clamping on their face and thumping on them. So an example, if I was riding one of my 3 year olds and I just felt like he was pulling me around and when I picked up on him he was just checked out and not paying attention or he was going ahead of me, I would cross my reins, put my inside hand on the crossed reins with my inside rein a little shorter (cheated) and then I pull steer him way in on a smaller circle while tapping my outside leg. I’ll probably hold for a firm three seconds and then let go. I might lope five strides and then steer in firmly again. Now, what am I communicating to my horse? Im not telling him “listen pookie, you’re only allowed to go in 2nd gear…” I’m saying “you can go as fast as you want but I’m going to make it really hard for you to do so.” It’s amazing how quickly they relax and check back in with you. Now if my horse was going ahead of me so badly that I felt him unsafe, I would snug one rein and pull and release til I disengaged him and pulled him in a small turn…two turns and then back to whatever you were doing. Forget the bad happened, go back and trust him. Then rinse and repeat.
As far as a step up shank bit…Paul Taylor Saddlery has a little correctional with tiny little swept back shanks that I really love and I’ve never had a young horse take offense to it. I also have a Billy Allen on Loomis shanks that I like,
That affords you a bit of leverage but not a good bit for any direct rein steering.
[QUOTE=aktill;8321867]
If he isn’t neck reining in a snaffle, he’s not ready to neck rein in a curb. Perfectly possible to neck rein in a snaffle.
Not the bit, it’s the training behind it. Nothing you’ve described in the post above is a bit problem, they’re all “lack of correctly taught aid” problems.[/QUOTE]
I have nothing to add, just thought this warranted repeating.
