Transitioning to Bitless -- HOW?

I train horses in a neutural bitless bridle. I sue the John Lyons bridle work exercises and it works great. I ride mine and my wife’s horse in the neutural bitless bridle and I have zero problems.

You are not giving any control what so ever. I know I have had horse spook and want to bolt on me and I got them under control with out problems.

The one thing to remember is training is what gives you control. Not the mechanism you are using.

I have talked several people into switching to the neutrual bitless bridle and all of them love it. Including some well known trainers.

[QUOTE=matryoshka;3837439]
As for stopping power, it is an important consideration. One of my OTTB’s got too strong to be ridden bitless when he was fit (I did not try a mechanical hackamore on him). He was a tough horse to ride in many ways, not just in the bridle. With the noseband, I would constantly have to hold him back. With a bit, I could give him a sharp reminder if needed, but mostly, I could keep him from leaning on his forehand.
.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, thats definitely it. Of course, training is the most important factor in being able to rate and control a horse, but sometimes if the horse has the adrenaline going like on a gallop, or endurance ride or cross country course, the reality is that with something like a snaffle or s-hack, you may end up pulling on them as opposed to being able to give an effective half halt. You as a rider need to have the sense to be able to tell what works the best for you and your horse. With all the Parelli stuff around where i live, I see tons of people hauling away on rope halters and getting run off with and they think they are being kind not using a bit.

For the most part, if your horse does bolt you will be faster able to stop him with a leverage bit or a mechanical hackamore. When I take young horses on the trail, I like to use a german martingale or running martingale just in case. Once I feel the horse is well trained and bolting is much less likely, I’d rather keep things simple and use less equipment.

Like many others, I didn’t do anything specific to make the transition. I made sure Dreams would listen to light cues on a loose rein with a mild snaffle. Then I put the s-hack on her for a training ride in a place she was comfortable with. She LOVED the s-hack. Its now the only thing I ride her in, including all parts of the actual endurance rides themselves.

It may not work for every horse, all the time–but then what does?

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3836263]

Don’t follow alot of old ladies who really don’t know what they are talking about and end up with a horse like theirs.
Leave the bit in, don’t let the horse eat on trail and if you want a good drinker don’t offer it water every waterhole you come to. Restrict it’s water at times and it will appreciate a chance and drink well.
The arab horsemen only watered once a day around noon.
.[/QUOTE]
UH…Excuse me, Shadow, but what old ladies are you talking about? I’M an old lady and pretty darn proud of the horses I’ve trained. I don’t think you’re a spring chicken either. :slight_smile:
I let my horses drink at every chance if they wish and sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. It depends on things but they are good drinkers. We “ain’t” Arab horsemen and I’m pretty sure our horses are thankful for that.

[QUOTE=pj;3842835]
UH…Excuse me, Shadow, but what old ladies are you talking about? I’M an old lady and pretty darn proud of the horses I’ve trained. I don’t think you’re a spring chicken either. :slight_smile:
I let my horses drink at every chance if they wish and sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. It depends on things but they are good drinkers. We “ain’t” Arab horsemen and I’m pretty sure our horses are thankful for that.[/QUOTE]

Yes I am 62 and have 50 years of experience that I am trying to share. I have spent the last 25 years in 2 large boarding barns and of that 22 years shoing. So yes you could say I have been around horses alot and the garbage handling I see is appauling.
I handle know kickers, horses that have to be twitched to shoe etc etc and I always always ask the owners NOT to be there for shoing. Junior will be far better without mom holding his hand and maybe after a few shoing mom can be there and see the difference in her son.:lol::lol:
Out of a cross section of 65 horses that I knew well I never met one that I envyed, not one. Savana, echo, titan, strider, shadow and now Rio set standards wherever they go.
Drinking?? Keep offering your guy water every watering hole you come across and you end up with a poor drinker. If my guy indicates he wants water I offer it to him but if he doesn’t drink well he will not get a chance again. I can’t remember not getting straight A’s for hydration at the rides and every watering hole he drank really well.
Sipping all the time is just a waste of time. Let the horse on trail rides alone, no eating and no drinking until you feel he has earned a good drink and if he just plays in the water move out quickly and don’t be so quick to reoffer him a chance again.
I am old, I have gained the experience so listen to it.

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3843041]
Yes I am 62 and have 50 years of experience that I am trying to share. I have spent the last 25 years in 2 large boarding barns and of that 22 years shoing. So yes you could say I have been around horses alot and the garbage handling I see is appauling.
I handle know kickers, horses that have to be twitched to shoe etc etc and I always always ask the owners NOT to be there for shoing. Junior will be far better without mom holding his hand and maybe after a few shoing mom can be there and see the difference in her son.:lol::lol:
Out of a cross section of 65 horses that I knew well I never met one that I envyed, not one. Savana, echo, titan, strider, shadow and now Rio set standards wherever they go.
Drinking?? Keep offering your guy water every watering hole you come across and you end up with a poor drinker. If my guy indicates he wants water I offer it to him but if he doesn’t drink well he will not get a chance again. I can’t remember not getting straight A’s for hydration at the rides and every watering hole he drank really well.
Sipping all the time is just a waste of time. Let the horse on trail rides alone, no eating and no drinking until you feel he has earned a good drink and if he just plays in the water move out quickly and don’t be so quick to reoffer him a chance again.
I am old, I have gained the experience so listen to it.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately I think you’ve fallen into the trap of thinking you know it all and that your way is the only way. We ALL can learn something from each other (you included). I’ve had horses and ridden for over fifty years and I’m pretty sure that I don’t even begin to know it all…and neither do you. If you can ever find the key to your mind and open it up you might be amazed at the things you can pick up from others. We’ve come a long long way from the arab horsemen you seem to admire.

[QUOTE=pj;3843457]
pretty sure that I don’t even begin to know it all…and neither do you. If you can ever find the key to your mind and open it up you might be amazed at the things you can pick up from others. We’ve come a long long way from the arab horsemen you seem to admire.[/QUOTE]
My problem is I have never run into a horse other then the ones I see on TV that I admire?? There isn’t one horse out of 200 in our block that impresses me, not one. Not one can do most of the things even my new guy Rio can do and certainly none can match my old horse Strider.
So yes I am suppose to be impressed by alot of ill mannered horses.
Can you honestly say you could leave your horse standing in a strange driveway near a busy road in a strange large city and just get off him, tell him to wait for you and walk confidently to the house, ring the bell and when answer walk in knowing your horse will be exactly where to left him when you went in. My longest time totally unattended was 1 hour 20 minutes and he waited for me. Untied, not restraint in any way but a voice command???
Can you pull up to the back of your truck, get off and strip the horse bare including the head stall and expect him to stand patiently and when told heal beside you into the barn?? NO halter, no rope, no nothing but voice command??? Many many a time in the winter I come into the busy barn and stop strider in front of the tac room , strip him right down and go into the room leaving him to wait. He will be there or someone gave him permission to go to his stall, again nothing but verbal commands that he obeys like a dog.
Yes I admire the arabs and their training, certainly not the spurring but I can understand it.
My mind works too well and I don’t believe alot of the things I am hearing here. 2 plus 2 still must add up to 4 in my world and if someone says different I am skeptical

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3843743]
My problem is I have never run into a horse other then the ones I see on TV that I admire?? There isn’t one horse out of 200 in our block that impresses me, not one. Not one can do most of the things even my new guy Rio can do and certainly none can match my old horse Strider.

Now that’s just sad. Not saying it’s not so but if it is that’s sad.

So yes I am suppose to be impressed by alot of ill mannered horses.

Nobody said that.

Can you honestly say you could leave your horse standing in a strange driveway near a busy road in a strange large city and just get off him, tell him to wait for you and walk confidently to the house, ring the bell and when answer walk in knowing your horse will be exactly where to left him when you went in. My longest time totally unattended was 1 hour 20 minutes and he waited for me. Untied, not restraint in any way but a voice command???

I wouldn’t even attempt this. Too many weirdos around to suit me.

Can you pull up to the back of your truck, get off and strip the horse bare including the head stall and expect him to stand patiently and when told heal beside you into the barn??

Yep. I tell her to let’s go rather than heel though.

Yes I admire the arabs and their training, certainly not the spurring but I can understand it.
My mind works too well and I don’t believe alot of the things I am hearing here. 2 plus 2 still must add up to 4 in my world and if someone says different I am skeptical[/QUOTE]

Maybe that’s because you haven’t thought that 3 plus 1 still gets you to 4.
I’m really glad that you have good horses and that you are proud of them. I just think you are missing out when you don’t understand that Some horses are different and need a different approach, Some trainers are different and due to working with the horses they are working with OR because they must approach from a different angle for some reason
(perhaps health, strength, etc.) they need to not be so rigid.
What is that saying…“there are more ways than one to skin a cat.” :slight_smile:
Guess we’ve really gotten off topic here. If you wish to continue this discussion feel free to pm me.

Another perfectly reasonable thread derailed by the rantings of an old fart.

[QUOTE=katarine;3844055]
Another perfectly reasonable thread derailed by the rantings of an old fart.[/QUOTE]

Can we vote him off the island? :lol:

To stay on topic, I think some horses just don’t prefer bitless. If the “transition” is really that rough, and the horse NEVER seems to settle into it and go along comfortably, then perhaps that’s a horse that just plain prefers a bit. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=katarine;3844055]
Another perfectly reasonable thread derailed by the rantings of an old fart.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, guys. :frowning:

[QUOTE=sublimequine;3844081]
Can we vote him off the island? :lol:

:)[/QUOTE]

Guys DO IT. I don’t really care.

pj -

katarine wasn’t talking about you.

No, PJ: not talking about you a bit. I’m sorry you thought that for even a second.

No one else knows anything about riding horses except one 62 yo man somewhere up north. It just gets old.

I started Sweets and Libbey in a Little S so I had no issues there. Sweets has used various bits and bitless options. I’ve galloped her in a rope halter. I’ve galloped her in a twisted wire barrel racing bit. I’ve galloped her in the Little S. I’ve galloped her in a plain o-ring snaffle. The head gear really shouldn’t make a difference. The only thing with her is that she detests pressure on her nose so I keep trying all kinds of stuff she’ll be happy with. “Stopping” is never an issue. But she’ll flip her nose up in the air at rein pressure if she doesn’t like the kind of pressure its giving her. She’s back in a bit now because she got really crabby about the Little S.

Monster on the other hand was definitely a process. She was a barrel horse, a cow horse, and an exhibition horse. She came with bit sores and a brain as thick as spancrete. She’d rather throw her nose up in the air and keep on truckin’, and the harsher the bit, the harder she’d fight you. Even trying to go from a walk to a halt would take 25 strides unless you used a 1-rein stop and whipped her in a circle. Being that she has some arthritis issues, that was NOT a good training option for us. ;). Over the course of maybe 1 year or so I got her into the Little S and that’s the ONLY thing she’s ever ridden in now. Or a halter. No bit at all. EVER. She detests bits, and the harsher the bit, the more she’ll fight you and refuse to stop. But it was a process of bringing her down to a kimberwicke to an ordinary snaffle and finally to the Little S.

I was cantering her in the hay field once and she was getting faster and faster. Given her hocks, I didn’t want to 1-rein her, so I had to canter a circle, making the circle slowly smaller and smaller until I could finally get her back to a trot then a halt. We probably made 15 circles before she stopped. She was in an o-ring snaffle, nothing fancy or special about it.

That was when I decided to do the hack. I figured a different type of pressure instead of “harsher” pressure would be the answer. She does much better in the Little S than any type of bit I tried.

My mom’s TB mare had only been ridden in a KK Ultra snaffle, or just an ordinary o-ring but she was a rearer though so I started working her in the Little S and she loved it! I just put it on her one day and went off across the pasture with no problem. You could almost feel the horse breathe out a sigh at not having to carry a bit.

I think that the ability to “stop” is in the brain, not in the bit. I did an emergency stop on Sweets while she was wearing a Myler comfort snaffle. I was riding with a yahoo who supposedly knew the trail quite well (it was brand new to me). He said it was safe to canter in a particular hay field. We took off cantering and when my horse had to jump a rock pile a foot high, concealed with grass until the last possible moment, I pulled her up. Meanwhile the dude was in a hand-gallop heading for the other end. Sweets just stopped on a dime for me without a problem. But if that had been Monster when I first got her, we’d have been going faster and faster until I either did a 1-rein or we went arse over teakettle and landed in a heap. She’d had too many years of bad training and her brain just ignored cues.

Every horse is different.

[QUOTE=katarine;3844322]
No, PJ: not talking about you a bit. I’m sorry you thought that for even a second.

QUOTE]

Thanks, guys. :slight_smile: And when you do want to call me something :smiley: would you please just call me “that big mouthed old broad”? I’m kinda used to that! :lol::lol::lol:

Ya know, most of us are used to opininated people. We wouldn’t post here if we weren’t. So all thoughts are welcome. However…

None of us are going to turn our backs on our own experiences (over 30 years in my case) and learning because somebody tells us to do it differently. Especially not over the internet. Offering advice is a good thing, even if it is vastly different than what most people will say. But then expecting, demanding that we follow that advice? No way. That’s when we object.

Shadow, most of us here read your posts and think about it. We may choose to do something differently than you do. We may seriously disagree with what you do. Or we might say, “Hey, I hadn’t thought of that as an option.” Ya never know. Accept that other people are going to do other things and that you have just one opinion among many here. Don’t take it personally if we choose another method or disagree with you.

It seems that every time somebody disagrees, you go on a rant about all the poorly trained horses out there owned by women. This implies that you think those of us posting here are just like that. We don’t enjoy being likened to fussy women with no sense. Once you go on one of these rants, we stop listening and start objecting. I’ve seen it on multiple threads by now. If you go back and read, most of the anti-Shadow comments start after you talk about all these rotten horses and their senseless owners.

As for bitless, if the horse goes well and stops well, then I think it is a better option than riding with a bit. If your horse doesn’t go well or stop when you ask, then it is not an option. I like a bit for getting a horse to go round and off the forehand. I’ve heard you can accomplish this in a bitless bridle, but that eludes me. If I want to truck on down the trail with my horse at his maximum comfort level so we can cover miles, then I ride bitless. If we are training, then I ride bitted. That’s my preference.

The thing I keep noticing about Shadow’s posts is that he never says HOW he gets his horses to be a horse that he “admires.” Please, oh please, share your obviously superior methods with we mortals…

Janeene - NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! Please. Don’t.

Please.

Just… let…him…go ride…somewhere…play with his horses…breathe the air of the great outdoors…give his fingers (and us) a rest.

Please.

How about if we give you the mike and you tell us – have you decided how you are going to structure your transition? Have you done your first bitless ride as yet?

You have the floor… :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=gothedistance;3845804]
Janeene - NO! NO!NO!NO!NO!NO! Please. Don’t.

Please.

Just… let…him…go ride…somewhere…play with his horses…breathe the air of the great outdoors…give his fingers (and us) a rest.

Please.[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

OMG, I can’t breathe…

Seriously, though, I will be ordering an Arabian S hackamore when my singing schedule slows down and I have more time to experiment. :wink: