Anyone familiar with a (possibly R+) ‘no treat’ liberty program/youtube channel/blog ?
I use R+/R- but I know someone interested in liberty who wants to avoid “treats.” They have their reasons, and I am not going try to pressure them to use (even low value) feeding rewards with their super precocious critter if they do not want to at this time.
What are they trying to teach?
I think people love the of R+ when it’s not really the right approach (or certainly not the only way) for the skill they are hoping to teach.
I do all my speed liberty work without treats, w t c whoa free longe. Obstacle and lateral work in a halter doesn’t need them. Tricks do.
None of the “natural horsemanship” western based folks use R+. They get a lot done.
Is this person a total newbie to ground work in general?
She has done some Parelli. But her horse is not able to be ridden and she wants to do more with him. She has a large fenced field, no arena. I am thinking R+, just with physical reinforcement, not food rewards. (He loves his scratchiest.)
That would work.
Warwick Schiller’s newer content might suit. It’s very mindful training. Some of its done at liberty.
Sure they do, but it’s not the main component. Wither scratching for the right answer is R+. for example.
Liberty work + immediate R+ kind of doesn’t work, unless the horse loves verbal rewards, or you’re working no more than arm’s length from the horse’s withers or head or whatever his favorite itchy spot is. Most of R+ is an active thing - touch, treats. And if a horse isn’t all that verbal-centric, it can take a bit of time to associate treat/touch rewards to the voice as a reward
What is your friend’s definition of R+? IME, way too many people don’t understand R+ vs R-.
Liberty work really comes once you can do on-line work without using the line much or at all. Is she to that point?
If someone is working at liberty because a horse isn’t safe to be attached to yet (lead/lunge line and halter), then the work is actually R-, not R+. If you’re watching the horse as he’s trying to get away from you and then in an instant he stops and looks at you, you immediately look away, which is R-, as you’ve taken away the negative aspect which is your looking at him.
Really good points. Going w t c free longe on voice commands doesn’t involve treats until you ask for whoa. Do that too much and you have a Velcro pocket pony 
Voice can be a powerful tool! My R+ horses have been conditioned since day 1 to an array of verbal rewards. They will beam from an exuberant praise delivered quietly. Doesn’t need to be loud to be exciting for them. It’s a big thing in my particular R+ training toolbox.
By conditioning them to voice praise, i mean treat-conditioned. Treat can be food, can be scratches. Food has a wide array of value. So do scratches. Of course you need to discover what it top treat and what is top place to scratch. Which are secondary…etc. Ranked reward is important. Bigger effort/bigger reward. And with voice, you GOTTA be in that voice. Can’t be fake…cause they know
Exactly! I’ve conditioned mine to know that verbal "good boy!!’ is a Very Good Thing, with the use of treats, and I continue to randomly reinforce the verbal with the treats as well.
praise is so very tied to my relationship with them. I have a couple horses who just don’t give-a-crap whether i like it or not. Most do. In fact most do a LOT. It really is relative to how relevant i am in their life.
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