treeless saddle question

[Cartfall]

Hi, driving in from the Driver forum!!!:lol:

One of my mares both rides and drives. I have competed her in Competitive Trail Driving over the last couple of years. I have just gotten back in the saddle after several years out with arthritis in my left knee. I have hopes of getting fit enough myself for either LD or 25/30 CTR in the fall.

Come my question. I have slowly been brining myself along in an AP saddle that has fit this mare for years. This is a mare who does NOT ever get a sore back. We have been doing fine for the last 4 months. Usually she gets ridden one day on the weekends for any distance–say 9 to 12 miles in deep sand (our usual trail here in Florida). I do ride/drive her shorter distances out my gate through the week…

Ths past weekend I went camping and we did two 4 hour rides within a 29 hours period. By the end of the second day I was incredibly crooked due to pain in left knee. Needless to say, the mare came up really sore on the same side as the bad knee.

So, a week off, a little bute and she is fine. No sore back. A friend has loaned me an “Endurance Sport Saddle” which she tells me is a brand name?
I rode in it today for the first time, a short 2 hour ride, mostly walking with a lttle trotting. I liked the feel of the saddle but have a few questions about them.

1. I seem to fit in this saddle like a glove–high cantle and pommel–really snug, unlike anything I have ever ridden before. My thighs literally touching the pommel. I posted and my belly (which needs to be reduced some) kept coming in contact with the pommel. Is this a normal fit?

2. The saddle kept slipping off to one side. I got off and tightened the girth a couple of times. Is this a fit issue or do they all slide somewhat since they have “no tree”?

3. I rode with the sheepskin blanket the gal sent with the saddle --a skito pad I think. When I removed the pad and the saddle, there was a huge sweat area where the pad had been. Since this saddle has no tree to support ventilation and heat release, is heat an issue which can cause heat bumps and soreness as well?

Understand I live in Florida where heat and humidity can easily get to the old “150” mark, I am concerned about heat issue.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

1. As far as I can tell, treeless saddles are made for teenyboppers or people who are built like them.:lol: I have a Trekker that I just barely fit into, and I am not a big girl. I ride in a 17" Collegiate for lessons.

2. My Trekker slips, too. Granted, I have a very round, flat-backed little horse. I bought the treeless because I had a problem with saddles pinching his withers. Well, this one sure doesn’t! It can’t very well pinch his withers when it’s under his belly, can it?:no:

3. I don’t know about the heat issue. I’ve never been able to keep my treeless on my horse’s back for long enough for him to work up a sweat under it.

[Cartfall]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;3948425]

1. As far as I can tell, treeless saddles are made for teenyboppers or people who are built like them.:lol: I have a Trekker that I just barely fit into, and I am not a big girl. I ride in a 17" Collegiate for lessons.

2. My Trekker slips, too. Granted, I have a very round, flat-backed little horse. I bought the treeless because I had a problem with saddles pinching his withers. Well, this one sure doesn’t! It can’t very well pinch his withers when it’s under his belly, can it?:no:

3. I don’t know about the heat issue. I’ve never been able to keep my treeless on my horse’s back for long enough for him to work up a sweat under it.:D[/QUOTE]

I love your responses.

My mare is Russian bred Arab so she is build more like a quarter horse–heavy body, round, but she has well define withers… I usually do not have an issue of saddle slipage with my AP saddle.

[GreyDes]

Bob Marshall?

Hmmm… I bet you have the Bob Marshall sports saddle. I have this for my Arab, and LOVE it. is this it? http://www.sportssaddle.com/b_endurance.php

If so, you do need to check the sizing. The link to how to size is here:http://www.sportsaddle.com/noflash/learning/answers/determining_size.htm

Also, keep in mind that the saddle will conform to your horses conformation, so if the back is “dippy” you may want to go a bit larger in the saddle. You should not be hitting the pommel when you post, although it did take me 2-3 rides to get comfortable with it. You actually don’t want to post as high as you normally would in an English saddle.

Good luck!

[GreyDes]

Answering the rest…

Oh wait, I only answered one of your questions!

Slipping - you want to do a few things here. My Arab is a mutton withered, wide shouldered guy, so I have lots of practice with this!

1. Use a mohair girth, preferably roper style.
2. Buy the back cinch.
3. Keep in mind that the saddle will compress slightly when you mount. If possible, have someone tighten it from the ground after you’re on.
4. If possible, use a mounting block. I can mount from the ground, but always get a bit of slippage when doing so.
5. You can also try one of the thin non-slip pads, such as Nunn Finer - http://www.bitofbritain.com/Nunn_Finer_No_Slip_Pad_p/0179.htm

One word of caution on the non-slip pad - it will build up more heat. I have not had to use this on my horse, but I did buy one for my husband.

Skito pad - I’m in the North East, so I can’t speak to FL heat. I can tell you that with the sheepskin bottom it seems to absorb reasonably well. My guy has gotten pretty sweaty, but never had any heat related issues. If you buy your own pad, talk to Tom at Skito, and pay the extra for 100% wool bottom. They have a version out now call Dryback, which is supposed to help with the heat buildup. Check http://www.skito.net/new_drytop_pad.htm

[GreyDes]

One more thing…

If you’re just having a little saddle slipppage side to side, try putting a thinline pad over the skito. It will have the added benefit of extra shock absorption.

http://www.thinlineinc.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=12

[matryoshka]

If you go with a treeless saddle, you can order a custom Skito pad in a “dryback”, which allows ventilation. My Skito is sheepskin, which I got because the horse I had planned to compete is allergic to synthetic materials. I don’t care much for the sheepskin for the same reason you mentioned.

So don’t let that be a sticking point.

If it is a BMSS and you are susceptible to knee pain, you are going to want the stirrups set a bit farther forward than is traditional for the endurance model. Chickamuxen1 can explain this better.

If your saddle is going off to one side, chances are that you are the one with an imbalance. Have you gone to a chiropractor lately? If you aren’t aligned, it’s hard to sit straight. I know this because I’ve got an alignment problem myself. I like the treeless because it helps me know when I’m sitting too heavily to one side.

Man, I wish I were still built like a teenager!!

[Cindyg]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;3948425]

1. As far as I can tell, treeless saddles are made for teenyboppers or people who are built like them[/QUOTE]

I’m not a teenybopper, and I love the fit and feel of my treeless saddle.

It does not slip. It does not roll, not even when I mount.

I can’t say if this is because my saddle is really great, or if it’s because of my horse’s conformation, or my conformation, or just luck, or what. I’m sure all those variables matter.

But for what it’s worth, this is the one I’ve ridden in for 8 years now. It’s not a big name, so you’ve probably never heard of it. But I’ve been very pleased with it.

[system]

I ride my mare in a Bob Marshall Sports Saddle, treeless, barrel model. I love it. Yes, treeless saddles are more prone to saddle roll than a good treed saddle. You will have to ride with your cinch tighter than you are probably accustomed to in saddles you have used in the past. (this is actually my only gripe about my treeless) I also reccomend the use of a breast collar, and, if you are still having problems, a crupper. These three things should greatly minimize your saddle roll problems. I use the breast collar, but not the crupper and can mount from the ground with mine.

I don’t know anybody who rides a treeless (and I know quite a few) who uses the same size in a treeless that they use in a traditional saddle. I generally ride in a size 15 western saddle. My treeless is a 16 and, though adequate, none too big. Most brands of treeless have a specific way of measureing for size, so I recommend calling the company you are interested in buying from and finding out how to go about obtaining the appropriate measureing instructions. Yes, since they are not built on a rigid tree, they do feel like they almost “bend up into you” when you sit in them. This is normal, but if you don’t have enough room to ride properly, then you need a bigger size.

I camp and trail ride in the mountains and have spent upwards of 8 hours in my Bob Marshall at a time in 90 plus degree weather. I have never had any heat related problems with mine, but keep in mind that I live in Oregon, so humidity is not much of a problem here. I can’t speak to humidity issues from my own experience.

I CAN speak to the knee issue from my own experience. I broke both my knees in a car wreck when I was 19. At the time I bought my Bob Marshall, I could ride about 45 minutes on a bad day and maybe an hour and a half on a good day before knee pain forced me from my horse. I also had my feet continually falling asleep. My Bob Marshall gave me back longer and more arduous trail rides. It was a godsend. I am more comfortable in this saddle than I have ever been, including before the car wreck.

While many of the testimonials will tell you that a treeless will work for any horse, that is not quite true. While they do work for the vast majority o horses, if you have a horse that, for whatever reason, has a somewhat prominent spine, you will probably find that a treeless doesn’t work well for him. Since there is no tree holding your weight off of your horses spine, if your horse has a prominent spine, your weight will be sitting right on top of that, without adequate dissipation and your horse will likely become sore. (there is some relief provided by the Skito pad, but not as much as provided by a saddle tree) That has not been a problem with either of my horses, but it can be for that horse who either needs groceries (why would you be riding that horse anyway) or one who has lost muscling across the top and has not yet had a chance to build it back up.

Overall, I love mine. I have knee problems too and it has been great for them. Good luck with your decision.

[matryoshka]

I was comfortable in a 15" Abetta, and I’m comfortable in a 15" BMSS. Maybe I’m the exception that proves the rule.

[chicamuxen1]

There are various pommels and cantles for the BMSS saddles which can make the seat fit snugger. I got into someone’s BMSS which had a higher pommel and cantle. The seat was about 1" smaller than a regular 15" but was still sold as a 15".

Also, don’t post forward and back as you actually do in a traditional treed english saddle. Post more up and down. If this is an endurance model the stirrups are more under you than the stirrup bars on an english saddle. So you can sit erect while posting and post a little up and then down.

If your saddle keeps slipping to one side and always the same side then you’re the cause. Everyone is crooked naturally, we have to work at being straight and may need help with it. It’s probably the hardest thing to change, being crooked, locked tight in parts of our body, one shoulder higher, one hip further forward, one thigh contracted with knee higher and heel higher than the other side. Hard to change on your own. Get help with that and I highly recommend Mary Wanless’s books.

Bonnie S.

[Miles]

Your slipping issue may be you, chiro for you and your horse is great maitains.
On the other hand you may want to check your horses shoulders. Easily done by setting a mounting block behind your horse to get a look from up top. Lots of horses have one shoulder higher than the other which could be causing your shifting. If you are using the skito pad, the company that sells them also sell shims. That should help.
Also have never had to girth up any tigher than a saddle that has a tree.
Also never had heat issues either.