Trial, short-term lease, or purchase and cross fingers?

[jcc813]

The husband recently tried a potential move up horse for sale that seems like it could be a good fit. We’re going back for another look with our trainer. If he passes that then we’ll negotiate a price and do a PPE.

A few people have suggested that we request a trial. In theory it sounds like a good idea, but I’m wary of all the potential things that could go wrong and wonder if it’s worth it.

The main reason we’d consider it in this situation is that the horse did throw in a few bucks over some jumps. Husband was able to stick the first couple times but the third one ended with him on a pile of poles. It didn’t happen over all the jumps and the horse settled back quickly but obviously it’s a concern (they were only jumping 2’3"/2’6").

The horse has been in a full-time lease for ~1.5 years and the leasee hasn’t experienced any bucking but a couple times he’s dropped his shoulders after a jump and she fell. Her trainer feels it’s more of a confidence issue and him still being a little green and not liking when the rider gets too forward. If that’s the case I wonder if the buck is just a stronger reaction to having a heavier rider.

We’ll definitely discuss with our vet for the PPE, but according to seller, leasee and trainer he’s been a really easy keeper and not had any major medical issues. I spoke to his current vet and he said they haven’t seen anything that raised a red flag, though they also haven’t done thorough lameness or neuro exams.

The horse is priced in the upper 4 figures. Not huge stakes but still a chunk of change so we’d want some confidence he’s going to be safe to ride. Also it would be nice to try him outdoors which is hard in the middle of winter. He’s not close enough to be convenient for us to trial on their property.

Another option is to potentially do a short-term lease. Since he’s already being leased this might sound less intimidating than a trial, but basically accomplishes the same thing. Of course in this situation the seller could still be showing the horse to other prospective buyers. That being said, it sounds like she hasn’t fielded a lot of inquiries to date.

Doubtful the owner would be interested in a buy-back option if we were to outright purchase as she’s moving out of state.

Would love any advice from people who’ve been on either side of any of these situations. My main questions:

• How concerned should we be about occasional bucking (assuming nothing comes up in PPE)?
• What's an appropriate time period to trial/lease? Our friend/trainer recommended 30 days.
• How to best handle exchange of money? I know for trials it's standard to pay a nonrefundable deposit that's part of the purchase price. How is the rest of the purchase amount handled? Do we pay full or partial upfront? Should someone hold the check in escrow? If we pay the full amount but end up returning the horse, how does one time the drop off/return of funds?
• Any other things we should take into consideration?

[Risuena]

@jcc813

The husband recently tried a potential move up horse for sale that seems like it could be a good fit. We’re going back for another look with our trainer. If he passes that then we’ll negotiate a price and do a PPE.

A few people have suggested that we request a trial. In theory it sounds like a good idea, but I’m wary of all the potential things that could go wrong and wonder if it’s worth it.

The main reason we’d consider it in this situation is that the horse did throw in a few bucks over some jumps. Husband was able to stick the first couple times but the third one ended with him on a pile of poles. It didn’t happen over all the jumps and the horse settled back quickly but obviously it’s a concern (they were only jumping 2’3"/2’6").

The horse has been in a full-time lease for ~1.5 years and the leasee hasn’t experienced any bucking but a couple times he’s dropped his shoulders after a jump and she fell. Her trainer feels it’s more of a confidence issue and him still being a little green and not liking when the rider gets too forward. If that’s the case I wonder if the buck is just a stronger reaction to having a heavier rider.

…

Would love any advice from people who’ve been on either side of any of these situations. My main questions:

• How concerned should we be about occasional bucking (assuming nothing comes up in PPE)?

Would you buy this horse if you knew this behavior would repeat every time he is ridden? Of course it might not, but I would assume that the horse you ride when trying a horse IS the horse you buy. I’ve seen too many people buy “move up horses” that are suitable for the rider they will be one day, not the rider they are now.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

Yikes, I can’t imagine considering this horse WITHOUT a trial or short-term lease. I would want to gain some assurance that the horse would settle down and stop bucking multiple times every ride.

Quite honestly, multiple bucks plus the information about the horse “dropping his shoulder” causing the rider to fall would be a “no” right there if I were shopping for my daughter. It starts to sound like a horse who has developed a toolkit for losing his rider.

We have taken quite a few horses on trial (under trainer’s supervision) and never had a problem, though I do understand the fear of something going wrong while the horse is in your custody.

[raave05]

do you really want to pay ~8.5k for a horse that has bucked your husband off and has dumped its rider multiple times over the last year, and is only jumping 2’6? i have to believe there are better options in that price range, as this doesn’t sound like a good fit with your husband given your description.

[hairystockings]

I will be curious to see what your trainer’s opinion is of the horse, especially once they sit on him. A green horse as a move up horse is not always a great strategy. Sometimes learning together works, but not when the horse has already shown an unfortunate habit of demonstrating his distaste for something by using a dropped shoulder or apparently a buck. Unless I confidently knew I made the horse buck with something dumb I did and that’s why it dumped me in a trial ride, and it was an odd and unusual behavior for myself and the horse, I would not go forward with purchasing a horse that bucked me off. Some horses, green or otherwise, simply do not have the brain to tolerate errors like that. That might just be him, green or no. If the rider isn’t ready to figure out how to ride him quickly or doesn’t have significant professional help so that he doesn’t set that button off, you’ll end up with a rider with ruined confidence and a horse with a bad ducking or bucking problem. The horse will figure out they can dump you and get out of work. I grew up riding school horses who knew dumping their rider was a quick way to avoid work, that’s a teenagers game, let me tell you. I won’t ride horses like that anymore. I also had a show horse at one point in college that was too much of a move up mount for me, and expressed his distaste for my insecure leg with bucking. My trainer, who turned out to be a rotten human being, could ride the horse fine and kept pushing me to make it work because he could jump bigger jumps and she wanted to go jump bigger jumps at shows. It destroyed my confidence and turned the horse into a mess. I had to go back to my old pony for awhile, with a new trainer, and the horse never jumped over 2’6 again.

I would proceed hesitantly and with caution and probably sit on a few more horses before making a decision on this one. Just because the horse may have the capabilities you’re looking for does not necessarily make them a good match for each other. The horse is clearly telling you something about what it thought about the ride, and he has a history of using his body language thusly, listen to what he is telling you and take it for the red flag it is.

[FatDinah]

Keep shopping.

[jcc813]

@Risuena

Would you buy this horse if you knew this behavior would repeat every time he is ridden? Of course it might not, but I would assume that the horse you ride when trying a horse IS the horse you buy. I’ve seen too many people buy “move up horses” that are suitable for the rider they will be one day, not the rider they are now.

That’s a good question to consider. They actually were a pretty good fit bucks notwithstanding. The trainer had warned us the horse can be a kick ride and likely be an immediate “yes” or “no” once you get on him. My husband wanted to try him first without spurs and he had no issues getting him moving and responding to his aids. One of our barn friends came with us as an extra pair of eyes and she also felt they appeared to be a good pair.

The second ride will be a good gauge to see if this might be a common occurrence. If he doesn’t buck again then maybe he was just excitable that day. But I would still feel a trial or lease would be warranted to make doubly sure.

Another consideration is that we used our saddle with a pad. It wasn’t a perfect fit, though it was close, but possibly another factor.

[jcc813]

@raave05

do you really want to pay ~8.5k for a horse that has bucked your husband off and has dumped its rider multiple times over the last year, and is only jumping 2’6? i have to believe there are better options in that price range, as this doesn’t sound like a good fit with your husband given your description.

To clarify they were only jumping 2’6" during the trial (my husband rode him in a group jump lesson). The horse has been jumped up to 5’ with no issues.

[Grasshopper]

Others made great points…if you DO want to proceed with this horse in some fashion, then at the PPE I’d request films of the front feet and the back, and palpation of the back. There’s playful/energetic bucking on landing, there’s bucking on landing to rebalance (should not be the case if the horse has been in regular work and jumping), there’s rude bucking on landing, and there’s bucking on landing due to pain (often in front feet or somewhere in the back). Did the horse put its ears back when it’s bucking? That would indicate (to me) it’s one of the latter two situations.

All of the above being said, I think a horse that ‘doesn’t like a rider getting too forward’–for whatever reason–should not be a move-up horse for a rider. Even as an experienced rider, I’d have to really love a horse and be confident it’s a one-off incident to pursue one that bucks me off in the initial ride.

A rider who is constantly worrying about being bucked off will ride very defensively and develop habits that are very difficult to undo.

ETA: Just saw your most recent posts. Saddle fit could definitely be a factor. Both of my current horses will object pretty quickly if a saddle doesn’t fit, and if it pinched on landing, perhaps that was the painful buck trigger. When considering budget, factor in a professionally fitted saddle.

[Redlei44]

Are you having trouble in your search? How many other horses has he tried? Is this one priced so well that you feel like you can’t pass it up? I think it’s fair to say that the behavior you describe (during the trial ride and the statements about the past lessor) and the end result (falling off) is grounds to pass and keep looking without spending time and money on a short term lease. Not to mention the risk that your husband really gets hurt in the meantime.

I think it matters what the “move up” is and who’s doing the moving up as well. Tough, advanced older teen who is willing and able to ride out a few bucks in exchange for a more talented horse than they would otherwise be able to afford? Adult advanced beginner who’s ready to start showing? Etc. Much different capabilities, priorities, likelihood of getting hurt or intimidated, and ability to bounce when they hit the ground.

[jcc813]

@Grasshopper

Others made great points…if you DO want to proceed with this horse in some fashion, then at the PPE I’d request films of the front feet and the back, and palpation of the back. There’s playful/energetic bucking on landing, there’s bucking on landing to rebalance (should not be the case if the horse has been in regular work and jumping), there’s rude bucking on landing, and there’s bucking on landing due to pain (often in front feet or somewhere in the back). Did the horse put its ears back when it’s bucking? That would indicate (to me) it’s one of the latter two situations.

Ears were not pinned during bucks. On approach of one jump his ears turned back probably because husband didn’t have his hands forward enough and horse was caught in the face a bit just before the jump. That’s all you can really discern from any of the videos.

@Grasshopper

A rider who is constantly worrying about being bucked off will ride very defensively and develop habits that are very difficult to undo.

Funny thing is one of the trainers at our barn, when watching the video, pointed out that he rode better after the fall. Ha. But yes, totally get what you mean.

@Grasshopper

ETA: Just saw your most recent posts. Saddle fit could definitely be a factor. Both of my current horses will object pretty quickly if a saddle doesn’t fit, and if it pinched on landing, perhaps that was the painful buck trigger. When considering budget, factor in a professionally fitted saddle.

Yeah that’s why we brought our saddle–whatever horse we do end up with needs to fit this very expensive tack! Fortunately it is wool-flocked so there’s a little flexibility. And our current horse has a similar build. But I might see if he can also try using the leasee’s saddle on the next trip to see if it makes a difference.

[joiedevie99]

OP - how much experience do you all have shopping? There are a few red flags here that make me think you are new at this. (which is totally fine, but maybe you need a better professional advising you.) When I hear that an under $10k horse has jumped 5’, I assume someone saw him jump out of the paddock once. That just doesn’t compute in my head otherwise. I also worry when you mention that you are looking for a horse to fit a saddle you already own. That just sounds impractical. There are many physical things that can cause bucking. Some will easily show up in a PPE, many will not.

I certainly would not consider purchasing a horse that I fell off of during the trial ride in this kind of situation. It sounds like hubby needs something safe and sane to move up on, and confidence will disappear quick if he keeps coming off.

[jcc813]

@Redlei44

Are you having trouble in your search? How many other horses has he tried? Is this one priced so well that you feel like you can’t pass it up? I think it’s fair to say that the behavior you describe (during the trial ride and the statements about the past lessor) and the end result (falling off) is grounds to pass and keep looking without spending time and money on a short term lease. Not to mention the risk that your husband really gets hurt in the meantime.

I think it matters what the “move up” is and who’s doing the moving up as well. Tough, advanced older teen who is willing and able to ride out a few bucks in exchange for a more talented horse than they would otherwise be able to afford? Adult advanced beginner who’s ready to start showing? Etc. Much different capabilities, priorities, likelihood of getting hurt or intimidated, and ability to bounce when they hit the ground.

TBH we were actually in “pre-search” phase when this horse came up. Our original time frame was to find him a new horse by the end of this show season, though there’s some flexibility. I started casually looking knowing it could take awhile to find the right one. We haven’t seen many local listings that would even warrant a ride.

This horse came up which is in the right age, height/build, budget, and location. A little greener, yes, but has cleared a couple Novice-level HTs, been schooled up to Training, and had a good season doing dressage shows. We also happen to know the trainer, which is a huge plus. Having had to go through only one other purchase experience, which was also through trainer connections, I’m wary about buying from someone with whom we have no ties or recommendations.

This will be our 3rd season showing. Husband is currently at BN and would look to move up to Novice by end of season. Ideally wants his next horse to take him to at least Training.

If this were my ride, I definitely would pass as I know I want a no-fuss packer. The bucking concerns me, but my husband is pretty brave and likes big, strong horses. We recently did a hunt in Ireland where he was on a huge forward mare that practically charged the jumps and he did quite well and loved it.

[jcc813]

@joiedevie99

OP - how much experience do you all have shopping? There are a few red flags here that make me think you are new at this. (which is totally fine, but maybe you need a better professional advising you.) When I hear that an under $10k horse has jumped 5’, I assume someone saw him jump out of the paddock once. That just doesn’t compute in my head otherwise. I also worry when you mention that you are looking for a horse to fit a saddle you already own. That just sounds impractical. There are many physical things that can cause bucking. Some will easily show up in a PPE, many will not.

I certainly would not consider purchasing a horse that I fell off of during the trial ride in this kind of situation. It sounds like hubby needs something safe and sane to move up on, and confidence will disappear quick if he keeps coming off.

Yeah, we’re new to the shopping experience. As mentioned above his current horse was a unicorn find by our former trainer (we weren’t even really looking to buy at the time), so we kind of lucked into it.

To clarify, though…the 5’ jumps were just the trainer taking him for a spin in the arena over jumps to see what he can do. He hasn’t shown at that height. I was just responding to raave05’s comment about the horse only doing 2’6". He’s schooled over Training jumps.

The saddle comment was half facetious but that was also a tip a seasoned horse buyer gave us (and I’ve read in other places)–to try to make sure your current saddle fits unless you want to factor in another $1-5K for a new one. I think that’s a fairly practical box to check when you’re working with a budget.

Of course, we won’t move forward if our trainer tells us it’s not a good idea. A lot rides (no pun intended) on his assessment. My main question is, if trainer thinks it might be worth a try, nothing crazy happens on the second ride, and he passes the PPE, how might we go about a trial or lease?

[Mango20]

You’re really narrowing down your options if you only shop for horses your current saddle fits!

I don’t have the answer for you, but it seems pretty common that most buyers want to do a trial, and most sellers don’t allow their horses to go on trial.

[Scribbler]

@jcc813

The husband recently tried a potential move up horse for sale that seems like it could be a good fit. We’re going back for another look with our trainer. If he passes that then we’ll negotiate a price and do a PPE.

A few people have suggested that we request a trial. In theory it sounds like a good idea, but I’m wary of all the potential things that could go wrong and wonder if it’s worth it.

The main reason we’d consider it in this situation is that the horse did throw in a few bucks over some jumps. Husband was able to stick the first couple times but the third one ended with him on a pile of poles. It didn’t happen over all the jumps and the horse settled back quickly but obviously it’s a concern (they were only jumping 2’3"/2’6").

The horse has been in a full-time lease for ~1.5 years and the leasee hasn’t experienced any bucking but a couple times he’s dropped his shoulders after a jump and she fell. Her trainer feels it’s more of a confidence issue and him still being a little green and not liking when the rider gets too forward. If that’s the case I wonder if the buck is just a stronger reaction to having a heavier rider.

We’ll definitely discuss with our vet for the PPE, but according to seller, leasee and trainer he’s been a really easy keeper and not had any major medical issues. I spoke to his current vet and he said they haven’t seen anything that raised a red flag, though they also haven’t done thorough lameness or neuro exams.

The horse is priced in the upper 4 figures. Not huge stakes but still a chunk of change so we’d want some confidence he’s going to be safe to ride. Also it would be nice to try him outdoors which is hard in the middle of winter. He’s not close enough to be convenient for us to trial on their property.

Another option is to potentially do a short-term lease. Since he’s already being leased this might sound less intimidating than a trial, but basically accomplishes the same thing. Of course in this situation the seller could still be showing the horse to other prospective buyers. That being said, it sounds like she hasn’t fielded a lot of inquiries to date.

Doubtful the owner would be interested in a buy-back option if we were to outright purchase as she’s moving out of state.

Would love any advice from people who’ve been on either side of any of these situations. My main questions:

• How concerned should we be about occasional bucking (assuming nothing comes up in PPE)?
• What's an appropriate time period to trial/lease? Our friend/trainer recommended 30 days.
• How to best handle exchange of money? I know for trials it's standard to pay a nonrefundable deposit that's part of the purchase price. How is the rest of the purchase amount handled? Do we pay full or partial upfront? Should someone hold the check in escrow? If we pay the full amount but end up returning the horse, how does one time the drop off/return of funds?
• Any other things we should take into consideration?

Don’t buy a horse that bucks you off in the trial ride. Things will only get worse when you have him at home. When a horse shows you who he is, believe him.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹If it’s pain related you are in for a long haul. An expensive one.

If it’s “just behaviour” the prognosis is even worse unless you are a pro trainer with a sticky seat who likes the bad ones, or a dare devil teen…

Your husband is not the person to fix this horse. Buy him a safe horse that can take a joke.

[merrygoround]

Insisting that your horse go in he tack you presently own is simply the wrong way to buy or ride a horse. Your husband is very much a novice at eventing, and needs a horse that has been there, done that even if a little older than you think you want.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

A going novice horse/ that schooled Training and priced under 10K…He either has a negative limiting factor (soundness issue or age), other negative factor (sub 16H, bad mover etc) or is a quirky type of rider (most likely as he dumped your husband). That is quite cheap for a horse with that level of experience So that puts a up red flag for me (but just a proceed with eyes wide open). Yes he’s green but the horse is competing above the level of husband so I get the interest—-and they could just want to move him fast and think you are a good home. But there are red flags for me…that said…I’ve bought green horses without ever even sitting on them…but then I’m an experienced rider. If it didn’t rattle your husband…and you otherwise think it is a good fit, then I might see how the next ride goes. You have to buy the horse assuming that buck stays there…and knowing that if you do NOT keep this horse in with good training…it very likely will get worse. I’d also really would want to see how they were xc together if possible.

A trial would be nice…but as a seller…I’d never allow it. I don’t like my horses going out on trials—not worth the risk to me. I want my horses in a the right match and have no issues with people trying the horse a few times but I’ve had it go very badly once with a trial and never again. So don’t be shocked if trial or lease is not an option. And I do agree…trying to shop to fit tack is a terrible idea. Just sell the saddle if you find a horse and it doesn’t fit. I put that in the same group as trying to buy a particular color of horse…look at all horses that suit your needs regardless of breed, sex, color or whether your tack fits them.

[punchy]

The horse sounds green and fussy; your husband sounds green and a bit coarse. Bad combo. Buy a solid fox hunter and let him have fun ripping around the xc course.

[RainWeasley]

My question would be, as far as the bucking: what was going on when the horse bucked? And what kind of bucks were they?

I do agree though, that while it would be nice to have your saddle fit the horse, it would be much more feasible to sell the saddle to get one that fits whichever horse. Which, also…were you using your saddle on the horse? Could that be a reason he bucked?