Triple Crown 30 vs. Life Date Barn Bag

[SharonA]

Supplement gurus-
Fella is an 18-yo Morgan, just diagnosed with Cushing’s, and IR. I soak most of his hay and he doesn’t get grain. We will be starting Prascend. He has been getting Barn Bag as a vitamin support. But, when they put the Barn Bag into his Smartpaks, vs. me feeding it separately, it bumped the $$ of the Smartpaks up enough to make me notice it.

Could folks tell me their thoughts on the nutritionally better choice – Barn Bag or TC 30? TC gets fed at a higher volume than the BB, which would make the TC 30 horse’s choice, as he thinks more is more. Is more actually more, or is there something about Barn Bag that would make it the better product in this case? I’m noticing that BB does not have iron, whereas TC 30 does, and maybe I don’t want iron for an IR horse?

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/prod…tion-balancer/
https://www.lifedatalabs.com/bb-ingr…nteed-analysis

I’m grateful for any suggestions.

[SharonA]

Life Data, I meant. I am fella’s “life date.” He doesn’t have to be ordering one on-line.

[Palm_Beach]

It’s always helpful to post links when you want products compared. I’m familiar with TC 30 but have always felt Barn Bag is very pricey for the ingredients. I’m going to guess that TC 30 has more protein. It’s probably about 45-50 cents a pound, so depending on how much you feed, it will cost you about $1 a day per horse. I’ve never fed more than 2 lbs a day to a horse.

[Ainsley688]

My 1200lb retired mare gets about 1.25lbs of TC a day, plus some SR for extra calories. A 50lb bag is a bit under $40 (i also get an employee discount, so a bit cheaper for me) and it lasts for a while! She looks FAB, and the NSC content is ( i think) the lowest out of the TC feeds. I use one of TC’s brand plastic feed scoops, and it has the pounds already marked on it to make things easier!

pardon the “i’s” Apple is stupid…

[JB]

TC30 at 1lb is much better nutrition than a serving of Barn Bag which is a “plus sized” v/m supplement for, IMHO, a lot more $$ than its worth.

[SharonA]

Okay, so, I found the tool on the TC website that helps me convert its units of measure so I can compare it, apples to apples, with Barn Bag. Definitely TC offers more nutrition, as JB says! But, it seems to have a lot of iron, and supposedly IR horses should not get a lot of iron. A couple sources on the Internet (FWIW) indicate that your average Joe horse needs 40 ppm per day, and TC 30 has 740ppm. Some other sources on the web – from the 1990s – state that glucosamine is bad for IR horses, in which case it’s a miracle that Fella is still standing. These articles recommend injected joint support as safer for IR horses. So, maybe the thing to do is get off the oral supplements, and go with injectables for joint support and TC 30 for vitamins.

Hiding my head in the sand sounds good too!

[Palm_Beach]

You can call TC, they are very happy to talk to you about their problems, if you are concerned about iron levels. They will probably ask you about your hay analysis…

[JB]

@SharonA

But, it seems to have a lot of iron, and supposedly IR horses should not get a lot of iron. A couple sources on the Internet (FWIW) indicate that your average Joe horse needs 40 ppm per day, and TC 30 has 740ppm.

You also have to consider the amount of food in relation to that ppm

40ppm is of the entire diet, so 20lb+ food for a 1000lb horse.

TC30 is a 1lb, maybe 2, feeding rate.

That said, I agree it’s a lot of added iron, and I don’t understand why companies do this. So if that’s a concern, you’ll need to find something with little to no added iron.

Uckele and HorseTech make an iron-free v/m - U-Balance Foundation, and High Point Grass, respectively. MegaCell is another iron-free v/m

Some other sources on the web – from the 1990s – state that glucosamine is bad for IR horses, in which case it’s a miracle that Fella is still standing. These articles recommend injected joint support as safer for IR horses. So, maybe the thing to do is get off the oral supplements, and go with injectables for joint support and TC 30 for vitamins.

Hiding my head in the sand sounds good too!

There do seem to be some IR horses who react very badly to glucosamine, but it seems to be a small %. So if yours is doing great with it, then no worries But if she’s getting it, and her symptoms aren’t quite managed, it’s definitely something to consider removing.

[SharonA]

“You can call TC, they are very happy to talk to you about their problems”

No! No! I absolutely do not want to call and listen to strangers talk to me about their problems! :lol:

But actually, I’m going to assume this was meant as “talk about their products.”

We will go to the teaching hospital in a few weeks, and I will ask for a “do not drive yourself crazy with this first-world minutiae” recommendation. I feel like the teaching environment is good for this kind of thing; the vets are asking the students, in a group, for pro’s and con’s, so you get to hear different perspectives and hear how the different aspects of any treatment are balanced against the others. etc.

Having poked around alittle more, I am guessing that there is so much iron in TC 30 because they also want certain levels of other minerals, and in order to get those in at the right ratio to iron, they have to up the iron?

[JB]

@SharonA

Having poked around alittle more, I am guessing that there is so much iron in TC 30 because they also want certain levels of other minerals, and in order to get those in at the right ratio to iron, they have to up the iron?

The ratio of Fe:Cu:Zn generally considered ideal is roughly 4:1:3

TC30 is 2.5:1:3. The cu:zn ratio is pretty on the mark. And technically, the iron is low in this balance

The problem is that most forages are already so high in iron, like double digits (and sometimes not just 10) relative to copper, and so low in copper/zinc, that things still end up high in iron and out of balance.

That’s the piece these companies are missing - horses just don’t need all this added iron. They only need more copper and zinc.

[Palm_Beach]

@SharonA

“You can call TC, they are very happy to talk to you about their problems”

No! No! I absolutely do not want to call and listen to strangers talk to me about their problems! :lol:

But actually, I’m going to assume this was meant as “talk about their products.”

Yep, just reread my post and will leave it as is since you busted me. Another product is Triple Crown Lite; my fatties do really really well on it although it’s 550ppm in iron. I switched from TC30 to the Lite at a TC rep’s recommendation about 2 years ago and am really pleased with the condition of my fatties.

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/lite/

[SharonA]

Here is TC’s response:

[I]"It is true that most horses will usually receive an adequate iron intake from natural food/water sources without additional iron supplementation. So what is the rationale behind us adding small amount of iron to our equine feeds? The answer is balance and assurance that any horse receiving the product will ingest an adequate level and balance of metabolically available nutrients.

Research has indicated that iron found in most forages is only 15% available to the horse and forage iron levels can vary from as low as 20 ppm to greater than 900 ppm. Additional research also indicates that the amount of iron digested and absorbed by the horse is affected by the dietary level of iron meaning that low dietary iron concentration increases iron digestibility and high dietary iron concentration decreases iron digestibility. In a similar manner, increased concentrations of minerals with similar chemical properties to iron (zinc, manganese, copper, cadmium, etc.) decrease iron digestibility.

Research reported by Dr. Kellon on the effects of dietary iron on iron status in insulin resistant versus insulin normal horses indicates that as long as the dietary iron level is balanced with other minerals that iron status of insulin resistant horses is similar to insulin normal horses. However, when iron levels are not balanced with other minerals then iron status is affected negatively in a significant manner in insulin resistant horses, but not in insulin normal horses.[/I]

Our feeds are mineral balanced to avoid these negative mineral interactions."

I found this, and the rest of the COTH comments, very helpful! So, I can now say that TC 30 is definitely a better option for us. Little man will be thrilled to have the bigger portions of TC 30.

Thanks, all!

[Palm_Beach]

Thanks @SharonA . Exactly why I feed TC and defer to what they tell me instead of trying to crunch numbers and balance stuff in my head or on a spreadsheet. They live and breathe this stuff and know little tidbits of stuff that even amateur “feed gurus” don’t know.

I think horses are pretty resiliant and can handle a diet that is less than perfect, but it’s a load off my mind to hand that job to TC.

[Obsidian_Fire]

I too am happy to read that information, as iron in the diet is something that has bedeviled me too. I personally know one barn owner who literally has a mill custom make her V/M supp and filters her barn water - all to reduce the iron intake.
Makes me wonder if she really needs to do that.