Trouble following bigger jumps?

Perhaps it is a conformational difference, I am 5’9 and rarely struggle to get my leg around a horse’s barrel regardless of ‘stoutness’. I find a lot of shorter riders with shorter legs struggle to make contact with the barrel without outward turnout of the lower leg.

I do see Beezie commenting this, but she herself doesn’t ride this way. At most her own foot angle is 20 - maybe 30 or so degrees: https://www.globetrotting.com.au/beezie-madden-showjumping-legend/

Practical horseman has a decent article on angles and geometry. they cite 15 degrees, which I agree with. https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/training/geometry-rider-angles-30010

Similar to lifting, and other sports, outward turnout of 45 degrees is usually a function of modification for less integrated, but still effective position: https://squatuniversity.com/2016/06/16/the-great-squat-debate-toes-forward-or-angled-out/

Essentially, more of a toe turnout lets you get away with less pelvic control. You can be more effective by requiring less full body control and integration. Glutes, quads, and pelvis are less engaged.

Agree to disagree, but years of sport training for LD running and weightlifting tells me how the body works together, toes out more than 30 degrees makes you less engaged in your hip, core, back, and upper leg; therefore, less integrated while being powerful/effective.

Everyone’s body is different though, when I am less fit, I find turning toes out is way easier to sustain and keep the rest of my position in check, YMMV. As you mentioned, you get hip pain and issues when integrating your pelvis, hip flexors, and glutes, maybe conformational, maybe you have an old injury or both! This is less about knees (which is not the issue, but the rotation generated through turning toes outward) and more about overall lower body integrated support.

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But even here you aren’t advocating for true “forward pointing” toes and agree that some turnout is helpful for achieving correct contact, which I guess is the point I was arguing. I was curious and actually went through a few photos of myself, and you’re right that, in practice, the “45 degree angle” is really closer to 30 degrees or so. In general, it looks like Beezie in general tends to go from a more forward angle on the flat, to more out-turned over fences, with the biggest efforts (or the ones that look like maybe they came at an awkward distance) generally trending towards a wider toe angle to increase leverage to stay with the horse.

To that point though, I think that’s a good display of how a squat is a close, but imperfect approximation for horseback riding. In a gym, you’re controlling forces in the y-axis, but don’t need to manage much (if any) in the x or z axis. At some point, when those additional factors come into play, I do think you have to balance efficiency (toe-forward) with effectiveness (turning toe out to increase leverage of the lower leg). OP needs to find that happy medium.

Sure - I think you took “toes forward” a bit literally, Anything greater than 10 and less than 30 degrees is physiologically accurate to engage certain muscle groups.

We disagree, that’s okay, I’ll go with what professionals instruct me both in equestrian endeavors and medically via a sports medicine clinical practice as well as my orthopedic surgeon. You absolutely have to account for the x and z axis when weight lifting, especially when you are lifting more than your bodyweight (I am 145 and I am lifting 200+ lbs). I think I found the Smith machine user :sweat_smile:

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Well, you know what they say, when you can’t beat 'em, try to insult them.

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Smith machines are great, but they take the full body control out of the equation. They’re wonderful machines for rehabbing and learning, but I am merely correcting you with scientifically proven and supported facts. I’m sorry you feel insulted with cited information!

I think two factors come into play here: 1) the angles of the pelvic structures, the shape of the head of the femur & hip socket, & S-spine length all vary from person to person. To say nothing of the differences in the soft tissue structures in those areas. Add them together & you’ve got an infinite number of unique combinations. 2) My teaching philosophy for yoga is that it’s not about fitting your body into the shape, but how the shape fits into your body. There are certain subtle physical signs that I will watch for as they indicate pushing past an anatomical absolute. And repeatedly overstepping one of those absolutes over the long term can lead to injury even for people who aren’t presently feeling pain from it. Overall, as I scan student’s bodies during class I’m looking for one long, uninterrupted flow of energy & the pose taking whatever shape required in their body to make the effort sustainable.

To that end, I don’t believe there’s any specific degree of toe turnout that is correct or incorrect. Instead, I look at it as what anatomical absolutes do we need to operate within to create a strong, sustainable posture? Imo that is pelvic tilt & hip rotation as close as possible to whatever anatomical neutral is for that individual & knees roughly tracking over the pointer toe. That will look a little different for everyone. It will even vary for the same person mounted on 2 different horses.

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:roll_eyes: Tbh, I don’t even know what a smith machine is.

I have lifted before, yes it’s been with free weights, yes it’s more than my body weight. Not sure why that even matters here. But from a physics standpoint, you’re lifting UP, with gravity resisting you DOWN. The dot model of the system (if you’ve taken Physics 101) is the weight, with gravity acting downwards, and the lifter acting upwards, all along a single axis. You’re not adding in extra z or x axis factors like someone pushing you while you’re lifting, or lifting in a massive crosswind that adds an external force that you have to deal with.

I digress, I’m not going to sit here and continue to try to have an adult discussion with you when you’ve clearly made up your mind on what’s right. I’m glad you’ve found something that works well for you.

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I like this approach. As with so many things in horses, if anything is consistent, it’s that there is rarely a “one size fits all” answer. Your responses always leave me thinking “gee, I should really go take a yoga class with @TheDBYC” Ha!

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I work in STEM (Data Science), I’m pretty great with math. Can you provide your sources on the Dot Model as I am only familiar with it in Quantum Computing: https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.4984745

While working in Engineering, I am comfortable with my understanding of force along x,y & z. I don’t see you providing citations for your position and your commentary on the nuances between squats vs riding aren’t accurate.

Here is a Cornell class notes and accompanying white papers on the subject: https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/DEA3250Flipbook/DEA3250notes/lifting.html

I am open to learning new things, but I am inclined to agree with @TheDBYC in that your and my conformation is indeed different and we are physically capable of different things.

Oof this has been a trip.

I actually have a degree in Physics and also work in STEM (imaging science) - I just don’t use it to gate-keep friendly discussions online.

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I am actually serious, I have never heard of the Dot Model for this application before. As I said, I am seriously open to learning new things and I really would like to see your sources please, I am really fascinated by this topic and I would LOVE to prove to a few people including my weight coach a different perspective, if supportable!

No physics degree here, I seem to remember dots for like acceleration, etc, but nothing on a 3d axis for forces…

No…dont do this! Longer stirrup is not better, its the angle you have. You are pinching with your knee and crouching your body down. You need the weight of the ball of your foot over your stirrup, and then press your belly button out the front and engage your core, with your head and eyes up. You want softness in the thigh, no grip with the knee.

Reading down further I think your core is weak. That was my issue. Start working out, Pilates as suggested above is excellent and a game changer. Takes a month or so to feel the difference.

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Sure, the technical name used in most textbooks is a Free Body Diagram, although in my circles most people generally just called it a dot model or dot diagram, since free body diagram can be a bit of a mouthful. It’s frequently used to simplify down models of forces. As I mentioned, it’s typically introduced in intro physics courses to help students not get caught up in the weeds of information/details of the system that aren’t as important as you might initially think, but I’ve had professors use them all up through my advanced mechanics/modeling courses, so their usefulness is certainly scaleable, although depending on the complexity of the system it may make more sense to break it into smaller parts. For now I’ll try to stick to as simple a model as I can.

In short, pick any object, stationary or moving - it becomes a dot on your page. Then you start adding in all the different forces acting on that object. For a glass sitting on your table, you’d have one arrow pointing downwards from the dot to represent the force caused by gravity (m*g), and another arrow pointing upwards of the exact length and opposite direction, representing the normal force of the table “pushing” upwards on the glass. Because the forces are equal in opposite directions, the object is stationary, if the forces were unequal, the object would be accelerating (reminder that acceleration is a change in direction OR velocity. If the glass were sliding across the table at a steady rate, it would not be accelerating). For added complexity, you can begin imagining what the system will look like over time.

In your weight lifter scenario, you can consider the forces acting on the weight - force from gravity downwards, and the force from the lifter keeping the weight either stationary or in controlled motion. Again, these forces are in balance and in opposite directions. Throughout the motion of the squat, the magnitude of these forces will change, but there really isn’t much force to speak of acting in any of the other directions. The bar isn’t magnetized to the wall, and you probably don’t have a strong crosswind acting on the weight in any direction, you’re not standing on a slanted floor where your normal force would no longer be directly opposite the direction of gravity, etc. At the end of the day, gravity pulls down, you push up.

Maybe this is example is a bit oversimplified for everything that goes on when riding a horse, but we’ll stick with it for now. The way I would describe it in this scenario is you have the force from gravity acting down on your body, which you (and by proxy, the horse) are counteracting. If your horse is standing still, your dot diagram is the same as your weightlifter squat. At takeoff to a fence however, there is significant acceleration forwards from the horse. In order to stay with the horse, you’ll need to exert an equivalent force in the opposite direction, which in horseback riding comes from your contact. Since we don’t sit in the saddle when we jump, that contact comes through our legs via friction against the saddle and/or the horse’s side. If you don’t have enough friction, you slip backwards. Too much friction and your horse’s eyes might be bugging out of their head lol. At the top of the jump, the model looks more like the weightlifter scenario, and at the end of the jump, there’s what I’ll call a “braking force” from the horse as they land causing acceleration towards the rear. Again, the rider must counteract this largely via frictional forces, otherwise they’ll end up on the horse’s neck. Now, friction isn’t the ONLY way to counteract these forces, but is preferable, as the alternative is allowing your leg to swing so that you can rely on your stirrups to counteract the additional forces.

In short, the difference between a squat in a gym and jumping on a horse is that weightlifting doesn’t require you to squeeze your legs together to generate friction in order to create stability throughout the duration of the movement. Being able to create said friction may require less than perfect position from a weight-lifter’s perspective, but for a rider, it’s necessary to sacrifice some of that efficiency to effectively stay secure in the saddle. As for exactly how much of an angle is necessary, I think we’ve beaten that dead horse long enough to say “it depends”.

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This is fantastic, and I daresay I agree with the above, I suppose the squat reference I was making was in reference to the point in time snapshot of the 1.0m fence at the general apex of the bascule, where I do feel like OP’s leg should not be rotated outward to that degree, as she is losing core effectiveness an falling victim to the forces you are very helpfully describing and compensating with a open foot angle to make up for a weaker and disengaged core/lower body complex and less surface area of her leg making less friction available for her to stay with the motion.

As we don’t exist in a vacuum, sagittal, frontal and transverse planes and forces do indeed come into play in all functional movement including weight lifting, but sure, not to the degree that one experiences while riding.

Baseball catcher stances and the ‘lack of outside forces’ squats are similar, the diagrams linked below indicates perhaps the forces acting upon the planes mentioned above are mitigated by a more engaged and secure stance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4541110/

It would be interesting to have a study / biomechanics clinic that measures the impacts of the forces deployed on sagittal, frontal and transverse planes of the horse and rider and if various foot angles and positions counteract them via by a stronger core / lower body complex or whatever foot angle gives you the most surface area of the leg generating friction (otherwise known as contact).

Functionally, how to get that increased friction and contact is probably different based on @TheDBYC’s mention of conformation of rider / horse pair.

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I’m blushing! You’re welcome anytime!

Addressed at the thread in general – it isn’t just about the knees & degree of rotation of the toes. It’s about finding the alignment that evenly recruits the muscle groups. The human body works in spirals & not just flat planes. The posture considered a beautiful, equitationally correct jumping seat in modern hunters tends to over-recruit the quads. That’s neither stable over jumps nor biomechanically stable in the long run, as you’re not using half of the muscles in one of the strongest parts of your body.

In alignment B in my example upthread, I’m not merely asking students to stick their a$$ out. You’re reaching back with intention, which activates your seat & core muscle groups. Your glutes are really just your upper hamstrings. Now, all the big muscle groups in the lower body & the smaller stabilizer muscles are recruited. This is a much stronger posture. I refer to this as self-carriage for humans :wink:.

Finally, don’t forget about your horse, whose skeleton is a self-supporting structure. He will valiantly throw his body out of alignment in an attempt to save yours.
The perfect alignment isn’t just about the rider. It’s the one that optimizes the balance of both horse & rider. One of my favorite pics, of local rider Sharon White, snapped by local photographer Erin Gilmore:

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/w8XM8gR4rj3a

Sharon’s position isn’t winner at Upperville perfect. Yet it gets the job done. She’s successfully weathered a takeoff with what I imagine were uncertain forces; she’s balanced in the air with Cooley On Show; and in a good position to maintain self-carriage on landing & not make CoS’s job 1000x harder than it already is. Her toes turn out a bit.

Or this pair at the Cottesmore Leap at Burghley:

This rider’s toes also turn out. But that doesn’t prevent the line of energy from flowing unbroken down his leg. His self-carriage is also on point imo, and he’s poised for whatever the landing might bring.

Both riders have brought their center of gravity back by shifting their fully engaged hips back as they fold over the fence.

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What you are contending with is called bascule. The bigger the fence, the more bascule from the horse.

As others said you need to fold. This means backside going back as much as shoulders going forward. As others have said pilates will help strengthen your core and also your legs and your upper body and arms.

Take another look at your photos with a ruler. Ear, shoulder hop harl in a vertical line. If we take the horse out of the photo when you land on the ground you should be able to remain standing. You would fall forward.