Trouble following bigger jumps?

[grandprixer]

Hi all. I’m working on overcoming the 3’ to 3’3" gap, and it’s killing me.

I’m pretty sure most of it is psychological, but I could use some advice on getting over it! Excuse the pun.

[Album] imgur.com

Some images for reference. I’m no equitation rider, obviously, but I usually don’t get in his way over fences and I definitely did over that big oxer. I don’t know what it is, I just feel like he’s totally leaving me behind even though the jump is only 3" bigger.

Any ideas? Can I work on this without having to jump big often? I try to jump only once a week or less, I don’t have great footing, but I could do 2x weekly over little fences. I flat the rest of the week.

TIA! Going to a trainer isn’t an option, I’m college poor. Which means no shows either - I’m doing this for fun!

[trubandloki]

I can not figure out how to see anything but you jumping a fence that is not an oxer. I click the image and hit next and the next image is a political cartoon.

[PonyPenny]

You need to scroll down, not next. Here is the picture I believe she is addressing.

[trubandloki]

Thank you @PonyPenny.

[blondewithchrome]

Now, I am no trainer here - but the first thing I see is that your stirrups actually might be a bit too short so you are losing your security and stability in your leg. Without a strong leg underneath you, it probably does feel like you’re behind him as you’re relying on core and upper body. I am always thinking about stepping down and foreward over the jumps with my heel which helps me keep my leg near the girth and squarely under me, which helps me stay with the horse when it gets to 3’ vs a smaller jump. I don’t know if that resonates for you at all, OP - take my observation with an adult Ammy grain of salt! Good luck!

He’s adorable. Lovely guy!

[Trekkie]

I think I suffer from the same thing you do. I also have a nice powerful scopey horse who makes little effort over 3 foot or under. When he actually begins to use himself over bigger jumps I feel
like I brace my upper body against the increase in power that I feel --a defensive response. I personally feel like a stronger leg and core always helps, but focusing on softness and following with the arm perhaps through some gymnastics that end with a 3’3 jump may be helpful to teach you to trust the power and focus on your position instead of riding a single big jump. Just a thought!

[OnDeck]

Your leg is definitely your issue here. If you can get it to stay more at your girth with your heel down I think you will find that your upper body naturally does what you want it to do. I agree your stirrups may be too short but it’s hard to tell, ideally you want them hitting your ankle bone or a bit shorter. Incorporate plenty of two point and no stirrup work into your flatwork routine and you’ll quickly see a improvement. One of my favorite exercises is to do transitions from halt to walk and walk to trot while in your two point without losing your balance. This is a great exercise because it’s deceptively difficult and doesn’t put any wear and tear on your horse. You may need to grab mane at first but the goal is to be able to do it without holding onto anything. Good luck!

[grandprixer]

Thanks all! Lots of good info here. I’ll try dropping my stirrups a hole or 2 next time I jump.

Gymnastics are my jam right now. This big oxer is set at the end of a one stride to a 2 stride, with X then vertical then oxer. It sets up a great rhythm! We add bounces in there when the jumps are small too.

[TheDBYC]

In the first photo, your toes are pointed outward. That means your hips & thighs have rotated out of an anatomically neutral alignment. That’s going to create a pinch point at your knees, and keep the weight from continuing down through your leg and out the bottom of your feet.

It’s so much less prominent in the second photo. So maybe it was a one off thing? If you feel like your lower leg constantly slips back, though, check where your toes are pointing.

[Mander]

The first thing I noticed was pinchy knees too, which might also explain the irregularity in the lower leg. I’m seconding the no-stirrup work and transitions in two point to work on that.

The other thing my trainer had me work on when I started riding a horse who always jumped BIG (although adorably), even over little fences, was to learn to “double fold”. I’ve never heard anyone else call it that, but the idea is you go into your two-point over the fence as usual, but then you sort of “squat” backwards to absorb the additional momentum of the bigger effort without bracing against it or dislodging the position of your leg.

[CBoylen]

Your hands are behind your shoulders. No one can hold balance with those proportions. You need to follow with your hands more to the jump, especially if this is an out of a grid. Tie your reins in a knot to practice on the flat or over small jumps, short enough where you absolutely have to follow them.

[splitrockfarmnc]

You have a nice low base of support, but as you pointed out, your entire body falls behind the motion of the bigger jump effort (lovely horse!). So your lower leg swings back, your butt drops down and back, and your upper body, though nicely folded at the hip, isn’t able to stay balanced over the middle of your horse, which in turn doesn’t allow your hands the ability to reach forward and down into an automatic release.

On the flat, I would practice posting at the canter. Tremendous benefits for rhythm management but also mobilizes your hip and leg joints and works on the up and forward/down and back balance. If that goes well, work on seamless transitions in your position, going from posting, to 2-point, to 3-point, to sitting deep, etc. Get to the point where you can swap through those different positions in any order without disrupting your balance or the horse’s balance. I would practice this at all three gaits and in a variety of stirrup lengths (where you are now, shorter than that, and longer than that).

Over fences, you can keep the jumps small. Practice going through a series of several bounces or variations of 0,1, or 2 stride grids while maintaining a steady position. In other words, find your stable half seat or 2 point and hold that in your approach, through, and departure from the grid. Keep your balance centered over the middle and let your horse come up to you. Even cavaletti or poles would work here. I realize that the bigger jumping effort is what causes you to drop back physically (and mentally too maybe) but since you can’t and obviously shouldn’t jump 3’+ jumps every day just continuing to improve your balance and position over bounces will make a difference. On your jump days, you can simply do this same exercise and add your larger fences at the end.

[Janet]

I agree with most of what others are saying. The common factor is that your legs re swinging back. On the smaller jumps, you are landing before it makes you feel unbalanced, but on a a bigger jump you feel unbalanced before you land. The crucial difference (especially since you mention oxers) is that you are in the air longer, so you start to lose your balance before you land.

Working on two point at walk and trot, making sure your feet sty forward, and you aren’t pulling on the mane or leaning on the neck, will definitely help.

When you jump, I would work on wide low oxers. That will keep you in the air longer, without jumping higher. Start with a jump that is 2 feet high and 2 feet wide, then gradually extend it until it is 2 feet high and 3 feet wide, or even wider. That will keep you in the air longer to practice keeping your feet forward. It is also good for improving your horse’s form. (If you don’t have it already, get Jimmy Wofford’s book of gymnastic exercises.)

I deal with the same problem.

[NancyM]

Your feet are jammed home in the stirrup, get them onto the ball of your foot. You are pinning your knee, and losing your lower leg… this will make you feel unstable. Your pinned knee is acting like a fulcrum, making you unstable. Secure your leg and you secure your position. Nice horse, nice jump! Pull your knee OFF the saddle, and put your calf ON your horse, and your weight in your heel. Stretch your entire leg around the horse’s barrel. A little more release with your hand, take the mane if you need to with a GM crest release to give you stability over the jump until you get your leg more stable (that is what a CR is FOR). Give your horse the full freedom to use his neck to jump. If you want to feel how much you are losing your lower leg over a jump, try tying your stirrups to your girth… because your foot should stay in that position, and if it doesn’t you will feel it if the stirrup is tied (it feels like your hips get dislocated until you learn how to get it right- don’t worry about that, you will learn fast). The string loop should have about 6 inches of “play”, not tied tight to the girth. This is an “old school” method, and not often seen these days… there are safety concerns obviously- just make sure that you use string that is not “super strong” to make the loop through the stirrup and through the girth (so that should the worst happen, the string will break and not help you to hang up). Feeling where your foot SHOULD be will be an eye opener for you, even just over lower jumps. Because this is happening over lower jumps too, you are just not feeling as unstable when the jumps are lower and your horse is not making the effort. Your horse is making a nice effort here, you are starting to “feel the power”. Your riding has to improve to do your horse justice when the jumps get bigger.

[greysfordays]

I agree its leg position and there’s some pinching of the knees. Because of that, I actually avoid no stirrups at the rising trot bc that encourages pinching. But cantering without stirrups will help.

For me, the biggest thing that helped me was doing pilates 3-4 times a week. There’s a lady with free youtube videos, her channel is called move with nicole. I’m 6’ tall with a long upper body and now i can really hold myself in place in the middle of the horse and release with my arms. The strong core enables you to be much softer with your hands.

[mika0116]

We have opposite problems, so perhaps I can help. Dressage rider turned jumper and now flirting with hunters while I make some position fixes myself!

I struggle with a more closed hip angle over larger fences, something you have done nicely. I’m going to ask a few food for thought questions, as I agree with much of what has already been said:

• lower stirrups a hole or two
• point your toes forward, none of that even 35 /45 degree nonsense
• your most worn part of your boots/half chaps should be your inside of your calf, not the back
• low wide oxers without stirrups (like 18" by 2’6 wide)
• neck strap/oh shit strap and lower your hands 2-3 inches to be on either side of your horses neck, no crest or short release - ONLY do this at 2’3 or less - and hold onto the neck strap with basically looped reins so you don’t catch your horse in the mouth
• like I need to for opposite reasons, engage your core to hold your ‘squat’ with your calves and rely less on pressure in your irons to hold you over the fence.

What happens when you jump much lower heights without stirrups? like 2’3 or less?

What happens when you canter pole courses - 2’3 short 5 fence mini courses, like 2 lines and a diagonal without stirrups?

And maybe most fundamentally, hows your two point without irons
or canter to trot, walk to canter transitions in two point with irons
(mine is ok until I have to have more hip closure, say for a larger fence, and then my abs give out )

Finally, a great exercise I have found via a new trainer is, 2 beat rise to your posting trot. so sit one normal beat and then hold for 2 beats in your ‘up’. That fixes a lot of leg issues that is for sure…it is also mildly exhausting!

[grandprixer]

For what it’s worth, I’m currently breaking in new tall boots and can’t flex my ankle normally yet!

I think the knee pinching is a chronic issue if you look at my previous posts, but I’m normally good about having the stirrup in the right spot.

I’m really interested to try tying my stirrups to my saddle - I’ll use something breakable, but I want to feel! My biggest weakness as a rider is how bad my body awareness is.

[TheDBYC]

quote=“Mander, post:10, topic:763742, full:true”]
The first thing I noticed was pinchy knees too, which might also explain the irregularity in the lower leg. I’m seconding the no-stirrup work and transitions in two point to work on that.

The other thing my trainer had me work on when I started riding a horse who always jumped BIG (although adorably), even over little fences, was to learn to “double fold”. I’ve never heard anyone else call it that, but the idea is you go into your two-point over the fence as usual, but then you sort of “squat” backwards to absorb the additional momentum of the bigger effort without bracing against it or dislodging the position of your leg.
[/quote]

I like that description of the double-fold. OP, when I teach a rider in a yoga private, I cue the sensation like this:
Part A

1. Start standing with your feet a little wider than hip distance apart, toes pointing forward.
2. Bend your knees & come into your regular jump position. Over the next 5-8 breaths, take note of which muscle groups are working & what that muscle activation feels like. Ex: In my body, I feel the heaviest load on my quads. If I allow my upper body to shift forward past a certain angle, my right knee objects.
3. Without changing anything else, allow your knees to fall inward to touch each other. What changes do you feel in the working muscle groups you identified in step 2?
4. Repeat steps 1-3 with your toes pointed out 45 degrees. What changes? Ex: In my body, Step 3 shifts an incredible % of the load onto my lower quads if I roll onto the inside edge of my foot. If I force myself to keep my feet flat, the load is transferred to the inside of my knees.

Part B

1. Start standing with your feet slightly wider than hip width apart, toes pointed forward.
2. This time as you start to take your jump position, imagine that you’re trying to sit on the edge of a bench 12"-18" behind you as you fold, and your shins are magnetized to the wall behind you. Hold this pose for 5-8 breaths as you again register what muscle groups are doing the most work. Ex: In my body, my hamstrings come online to share the work with my quads. There’s a buoyancy in my hip flexors (almost like an imaginary air bag) that I didn’t feel in Part A.
3. Without changing anything else, allow your knees to fall inwards to touch.*

OK, I tricked you. Most people will find it physically impossible to let their knees fall inwards more than a few inches in this stance.

[findeight]

Above comments are dead on.

Like to add, your eyes seem to be focused between his ears so between that and your position, you are landing in the proverbial heap spending several strides readjusting and losing momentum. Stop riding TO the jump, ride OVER it and away.

Look above the next jump a couple of strides before take off. You don’t need a trainer or bigger jumps, you can tell yourself to look up, up, up and retrain your eye, might be surprised how much of your body position changes simply by raising your eyes. Even over ground poles, Make it a habit, even in your flatwork so its easy to stay on it over fences.

Might be overthinking a bit too much over the top, relax and think forward.

[Mander]

@mika0116

point your toes forward, none of that even 35 /45 degree nonsense

I find this generally causes me to pinch at my knees, especially on wider barreled horses. I don’t know about your knees, but mine bend forwards/backwards, not laterally. So in trying to get some more contact with my lower leg, I either have to weirdly rotate my femur outwards (which ends up being excruciating and causes a lot of rigidity through my hips) or try to get some more support with my upper thigh, which generally turns into pinching at the knees and flaring my lower leg away from the horse altogether.

I’ll also add that Beezie Madden constantly comments in her position critiques that the feet need to be at a 45 degree angle. If the queen says it, I’m not going to call it “nonsense”.