Trouble with flying and simple lead changes on course

[evilc123]

Issue #1: I sent my horse to a trainer in Ocala last winter with one of the major objectives being to become auto with flying changes. She came back with an awful habit of swapping only the front (auto) but not being able to get the hind, or not even recognizing that she needs to change the hind. She only gets one clean change for ever 40 tries of changing only the front.

Issue #2: Because of Issue #1, I am going back to basics and forcing a simple change in between fences when she doesn’t land on the correct lead, and schooling counter canter during flatwork sessions for balance. However, I am having a really hard time getting her to transition from canter to trot to get the simple change done quickly and cleanly. When I try to push her into trot she just shortens her canter until she’s almost cantering in place before coming back to trot–even if am very assertive with my aids. This particular issue is not new since Florida…and it is not a problem at all when I’m schooling flatwork–only when jumping.

I would love any thoughts from experienced riders on dealing with either or both issues. Happy to provide more background if needed.

[staceymc]

I would go back even further. Jump a fence, halt on the line. STRAIGHT is the only thing you are worried about. If she won’t halt, run into the fence if you have to. But you are not turning, not getting a change, nothing except stopping straight. Once you’ve established that downward transitions after the fence are not optional, then you can keep cantering (if on the correct lead) or trot and simple change.

I would also have vet out and rule out any issues with SI, stifles and/or hocks. My A/O horse will start being snarky and not wanting to change or not want to change behind when he needs the SI injected.

[evilc123]

@staceymc

I would go back even further. Jump a fence, halt on the line. STRAIGHT is the only thing you are worried about. If she won’t halt, run into the fence if you have to. But you are not turning, not getting a change, nothing except stopping straight. Once you’ve established that downward transitions after the fence are not optional, then you can keep cantering (if on the correct lead) or trot and simple change.

I would also have vet out and rule out any issues with SI, stifles and/or hocks. My A/O horse will start being snarky and not wanting to change or not want to change behind when he needs the SI injected.

Great suggestion. Thank you! As far as soundness…I didn’t want to go into detail in the OP, but all soundness issues have been very thoroughly ruled out. The only relevant veterinary issue is an old high bow in her right hind suspensory that makes it a bit harder for her to reach under herself with her right hind, but we still school up to 3rd level dressage movements without issue, so I expect flying changes to be within her grasp.

[farfel]

Be sure to include turns on the haunch and turns on the forehand in your flatwork.

[Denali6298]

Was she able to get them with the trainer?

[evilc123]

@Denali6298

Was she able to get them with the trainer?

Nope. Current trainer said that a small minority of horses just don’t have the coordination for changes even if they are fully fit and otherwise able to get to advanced levels… Current trainer is more experienced in training (rather than solely competing) and I am working on this with her; I just wanted to get COTH community feedback as well.

[Denali6298]

@evilc123

Nope. Current trainer said that a small minority of horses just don’t have the coordination for changes even if they are fully fit and otherwise able to get to advanced levels… Current trainer is more experienced in training (rather than solely competing) and I am working on this with her; I just wanted to get COTH community feedback as well.

So current trainer is not the trainer in Ocala? Advanced levels in what discipline?

I assume recently you have ruled out hind end unsoundness?

To me it sounds like your horse has holes in it’s training or it is a soundness problem.

[evilc123]

@Denali6298

So current trainer is not the trainer in Ocala? Advanced levels in what discipline?

I assume recently you have ruled out hind end unsoundness?

To me it sounds like your horse has holes in it’s training or it is a soundness problem.

Correct. Current trainer is not the Ocala one; we switched to the new trainer after I realized that the old one was cutting corners in our dressage. Current trainer has trained FEI level eventing horses. (We do eventing, but since this is more of a SJ issue, I posted here.)

I posted above about soundness responding to another person.

I agree that she has holes in her training, which is why I’m reaching out here for input. I bought the horse a couple years ago without any jumping in her background and I’ve been bringing her along in her jumping. She super talented and has a phenomenal correct jump. I’ve been riding my whole life, but as we know, that does not a trainer make. :winkgrin:

[Denali6298]

I cannot imagine a sound horse not having clean changes at the advanced levels. That’s me though.

This sounds like you need to start over with the horse as she’s not actually straight. My horse has flying changes but will not do them if she’s unbalanced.

The fact that you can’t get a simple change means you REALLY need to dial it back as that is a building block for the flying change.

[evilc123]

@Denali6298 I was referring to my trainer’s experience wrt upper level horses, not my horse. Anyway…as I said above, we school mid level dressage movements, and simple changes are seamless and balanced on the flat–she just gets choppy and short while jumping. My trainer has literally worked with hundreds of imported horses, so if you haven’t seen that yourself, then it may just be your background.

[fordtraktor]

hm. I wouldn’t want auto changes on an eventer. You’ll never get her to understand counter canter if the changes are auto. I am confused at to why an event trainer would try to install them.

I agree to take it back a few steps and get the horse straighter with more control over the shoulders with a dressage instructor. it is clear the changes aren’t coming from behind like they should be. Avoid asking for them at all for a while and work on the correctness…then when you ask with the foundation present, they should be there.

[Denali6298]

@fordtraktor I think the OP thinks auto changes = flying changes.

[evilc123]

@fordtraktor

hm. I wouldn’t want auto changes on an eventer. You’ll never get her to understand counter canter if the changes are auto. I am confused at to why an event trainer would try to install them.

I agree to take it back a few steps and get the horse straighter with more control over the shoulders with a dressage instructor. it is clear the changes aren’t coming from behind like they should be. Avoid asking for them at all for a while and work on the correctness…then when you ask with the foundation present, they should be there.

Thank you! This is essentially what we are doing and what a few others have suggested, so I am glad that we seem to be on the right track to correcting the issue.

When I say “auto” I mean with light aids–stepping into outside stirrup around a turn vs the way you’d ask for tempes. (I am pretty far removed from the HJ world, so maybe I’m misusing the term. :winkgrin:)

[Redlei44]

“Auto” typically refers to changes/swaps that are so easy that you really don’t do anything but change direction to get the lead change. Aka very little setup and very minor cues. Typically found only on mounts that stay pretty straight and balanced in the corners on their own (because if they required a certain ride to stay straight an balanced and for the change to always be there, wouldn’t be auto).

Does your horse change over a pole coming into the corner?

Why do you think jumping is so different than flatting when it comes to the simple? Is he/she generally getting strong, quick, fresh?

You might concentrate on flatwork (all of your lateral work, adjustability, etc) that just happens to have some jumps sprinkled in there, to keep the horse organized and guessing what comes next.

[evilc123]

@Redlei44 Thanks for the terminology correction (and for being polite about it!).

Yes, she changes easily over a pole at a corner or in the middle of the arena. She is quite trained on the flat even though a lot of people seem to be calling that into question–which I understand. I think the problem is just her mindset during a jump course where she gets super focused on what is next and thinks she knows better than I do in those moments of swapping in front AND when she doesn’t want to come back for the simple. I think your suggestion of integrating a jump here and there into our flatwork may help with this issue. Thank you!

[Gumby80]

I’ve definitely met otherwise sound, educated horses who don’t have a great lead change, or occasionally don’t have one at all. I am not a trainer, but it seems that a) some horses just don’t “get it” even from the start, and b) if you screw up the first attempt to teach them, it’s really, really hard to come back from there (sorry OP…).

We used to get a lot of OTTBs in when I was younger, and we would teach them to do lead changes by turning across the diagonal of the ring, leg yielding a few steps off the current outside leg, walk, leg yield off the new outside leg, pick up new canter lead. Eventually, you can just remove the walking part, and you can move them off your current outside leg a few steps, then ask with the new outside leg and they will change. You could try this method and see if it helps. Simple changes through the trot are hard for the reason you describe: it’s hard to keep them balanced and calm.

I’ve mostly done eventing and jumpers, and I can see how this way of teaching them might not work for a hunter (because it changes the rhythm and the track to get the change). But I like it for jumpers, because it has the effect of balancing them up before the change, so much less chance of only changing in front. Just anecdotally, the horses I’ve ridden who had a jumping career in Europe seem to have been taught to do lead changes like this too. (The very few hunters I’ve ridden just sort of look over their shoulders at me like "what the heck are asking me for lady???)

[alibi_18]

@evilc123

Thank you! This is essentially what we are doing and what a few others have suggested, so I am glad that we seem to be on the right track to correcting the issue.

When I say “auto” I mean with light aids–stepping into outside stirrup around a turn vs the way you’d ask for tempes. (I am pretty far removed from the HJ world, so maybe I’m misusing the term. :winkgrin:)

What Fordtraktor essentially said and :

If you are doing 3rd level dressage, does your horse do the changes correctly when doing flat work?

Simple changes should be done from the walk - it is introduced at 2d level, with 3 (5 max) walk steps.
I believe it will help you out way more than trying to rush the trot transitions, both downward and upward.

If this was my horse, during training on the flat, I would concentrate on Canter - walk- Canter and Canter- halt- Canter transitions, mixing it up by asking for the correct lead or the counter lead at anytime.

No more flying changes until your half halts and cues for each lead is perfectly clear.

During jumping lessons, I would do exercices that will help you train your horse to land on the lead of your choice. If the horse doesn’t land on the correct lead, you just do your walk or halt transition quietly and canter back on the lead you wanted.

When this becomes easy, only then would I try to ask for the changes again.

What does your trainer say?

[RugBug]

@evilc123

Yes, she changes easily over a pole at a corner or in the middle of the arena.

Can you add a helper pole after your line when jumping? It will force you to make sure she stays straight and to not just let her race through a turn as you will be setting up for another element.

FWIW - my horse would change in front and not behind. It’s an overall balance issue for her…she needs to be straight and forward to get the change. I hear that she does them no problem in the hunt field (pre-me, I did not hunt her), just struggles in the arena.

[Denali6298]

Another thought OP is to ride her in a fuller seat while on course. If you are not riding the course like a hunter rider that could help since she’s fine on the flat. Ride her the same regardless of if there is a jump in the way or not.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

My daughter and her horse struggled to get flying changes. I think part of it was because she wanted him so badly to have them and as per @Gumby80, the first attempt to teach them was either incorrect or over emphasized or both - and then trying to overcome that just escalated the issue (in both their minds). Horse also probably always had some upper hq issues (si/stifles) which impacted his ability to do changes as one direction was definitely harder than the other.

This horse was also very well schooled on the flat, could do a balanced counter canter for days, had beautiful simple changes (including when jumping courses). Interestingly, when he only got a partial change in the hard direction, it was usually in back. The eventual compromise was that daughter almost never schooled flying changes, would only ask for them in shows in over fences classes or flat classes that called for them. She was almost always able to get them when needed using that strategy.