Trying to find US show record: horse imported from Germany

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@mika0116

Reading upthread I believe OP implies that the continued communication was at the directive of counsel.

Interesting. I’ll admit, I seem to have missed that detail, or perhaps it was just unclear to me from previous comments.

@mika0116

Also, folks (myself included in this bunch hence I am speaking on it) who have the disposable income and time often will pursue things like litigation with no expectation of compensation or award.

Yes, this does happen sometimes

@mika0116

Having a lawsuit and public record of this person’s behavior can be satisfaction enough in the “attempt” to prevent someone else from falling victim to this person’s behavior.

Well… having someone file a lawsuit is different from someone actually prevailing with a suit. Personally, I place more weight on litigation that ends in an actual judgement. The truth is lawsuits are filed all the time in a variety of circumstances, and go nowhere. For any number of reasons.

@mika0116

Anecdotally, I rode with trainers that indeed have had similar lawsuits brought against them

When you say “similar lawsuits” - what specifically are you referring to?

@mika0116

I wasn’t aware for the first few years I rode with them until I considered buying a horse from them. An independent saddle fitter tipped me off to investigate them from a legal standpoint.

How did you go about the legal investigations that you speak of? Dis you look at public records or something like that?

@mika0116

Lawsuit(s) against them did not award the other party much from a dollar value perspective given the physical damages and loss of personal property / damage to property,

Was this a matter of multiple suits against one trainer, or multiple trainers? If damages were minimal, are you talking about small claims issues?

@mika0116

BUT it did make me not engage with the trainers further & I certainly didn’t get on horses they attempted to sell / high dollar value lease to me.

I can understand that.

@mika0116

I thank the person that sued in my mind often for going after what they felt was right - and based on some quick LinkedIn / Social Media stalking of them (including property purchase records like homes and land in CA) - they did not pursue legal action for the money - they have MORE than plenty.

Aaaaah. So it was a wealthy former client of this trainer. I guess wealthy people who don’t have to worry about eating the legal expenses involved in pursuing litigation can sue whenever they feel a situation merits it. My assumption about the OP is that she was interested in this horse in the first place, because it seems like it might have been a great bargain. So I admittedly have assumed she doesn’t necessarily have the sort of disposable income to just pursue litigation for the principle of it. Otherwise she would probably be shopping at a different price point for her next horse. But admittedly… that’s just me making some assumptions/deductions about the people involved in this situation.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@RavtoadOH

I find a lot of things really strange from the seller with many aspects of this. I find it strange that she didn’t ask me one single time if I was ok after the incident happened considering she is a medical professional, and kept repeating “I’ve never seen him do that before” over and over

I can understand you finding that off.

As far as the seller being a medical professional… that covers a super broad range of possible occupations. Perhaps she’s not as educated on the potential risks involved in the type of spill you took as a full MD might be? I’m just saying… some professionals are more educated and aware than others

@RavtoadOH

There was communication after because she asked me to followup with her as I was on my way to go to the ER.

So when she asked you to follow up… are you saying she specifically asked you to follow up on whether or not you wanted to buy the horse? Or did she ask you to follow up in terms of what the results of the ER visit were? I’m a little confused.

@RavtoadOH

Because of the level of complete denial, outright lying, extremely skewed perceptions of what happened, and numerous things in her involved responses, including asking me for advice on certain areas, I told her that she needed to send the horse to a very competent trainer and make them fully aware of what happened so someone else wouldn’t get hurt. She followed up with me later stating she had found a trainer that “worked with Grand Prix jumpers”. I asked who this was, she provided his name and info and I had never heard of this person, so I called him.

Was the trainer who “worked with Grand Prix jumpers” the cowboy type featured in the Facebook videos? He seemed really good in some respects, but not a jumper trainer.

@RavtoadOH

The call is when I found out about the horse going to this very same trainer in June for the problem horse clinic, which resulted in the horse bolting and bucking on him, the trainer saying the behavior would be repeated unless the horse went through extensive training, and subsequently finding the vid as well.

Sooooo… same trainer? The cowboy? Did the seller vs possibly mean he had worked with Warmblood jumpers who had serious behavioral issues or something like that?

Anyway… just engaging on specifics because some of the story is still confusing to me.

[RavtoadOH]

She most definitely does have the training and even used it as a “prove point” after I found out after the phone call with the trainer that he had done this before. “I spend every day saving lives helping to heal people not hurt them”. The same person that never asked if I was ok.

The follow up was regarding the horse but no specifics given. She had zero interest displayed in what would happen to me at the ER. edited for grammar

This is the same western trainer, which is why I had my doubts on the working with Grand Prix jumpers and called him. I initially googled him and what I saw made zero sense on her statement since he appeared to be a western trainer that also has done some dressage work. I didn’t see anything regarding jumpers and especially not Grand Prix ones.

That said, nothing bad on the trainer here at all, I had a good convo with him.

[mika0116]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

ou look at public records or something like that?

I think you might be on the older side (Mom and all) so I’ll bite and assume these are all in good faith questions and I am not being baited into a pedantic discussion about how public records work.

Most legal cases are public record, very few instances are sealed. I also have a professional license that allows me to access various legal records that are sealed to certain laypeople.

You can search someone’s name and business in the legal systems online and find whatever there is to find about someone. Granted, I was a forensic investigator before my PE/IB and tech days, so I have above average skills compared to most people to find information. If something is public record, I’ll find it in less than 48 hours.
I can easily doxx just about anyone on this forum unless they’re sharp and use multiple forms of cyber security protection (but don’t because it is illegal regardless of how fun it is)

That said, all these cases were public record / behind a very low paywall of under $40 for me to download and possess the entire court record (several hundred pages of multiple lawsuits, some that were prevailing and some that were dropped).

The trainers were a pair - LLC’d together and separately under multiple enterprises over 2 decades.
They had several folks sue them - some super wealthy clients some more middle of the road income levels ($500k/year income ish (based on public records of salary bands for where they worked - IB/PE/hedge funds and tech all publicly post avg income of all their levels) vs the double digit 7 figure/year income of the client I reference in the above comment)

Some were small claims, but some were for much higher, but the AWARD themselves at the end of some of the lawsuits were minimal (IMO proportional to the cost of all the legal process) not the damages.

All this to say - accessing public records and the ability to discern truth from veritable sources is how I did / know all of the above.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@RavtoadOH

She most definitely does have the training and even used it as a “prove point” after I found out after the phone call with the trainer that he had done this before. “I spend every day saving lives helping to heal people not hurt them”. The same person that never asked if I was ok.

Gotcha

@RavtoadOH

The follow up was regarding the horse but no specifics given. She had zero interest displayed in what would happen to me at the ER. edited for grammar

Thanks for clarifying

@RavtoadOH

This is the same western trainer, which is why I had my doubts on the working with Grand Prix jumpers and called him. I initially googled him and what I saw made zero sense on her statement since he appeared to be a western trainer that also has done some dressage work. I didn’t see anything regarding jumpers and especially not Grand Prix ones.

That said, nothing bad on the trainer here at all, I had a good convo with him.

He did seem like a good cowboy type in terms of working with reactive horses. He sat the horse well in the video you linked.

It’s definitely weird to claim he works with Grand Prix jumpers when he actually doesn’t.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@mika0116

I think you might be on the older side (Mom and all) so I’ll bite and assume these are all in good faith questions and I am not being baited into a pedantic discussion about how public records work.

Okay…

@mika0116

Most legal cases are public record, very few instances are sealed. I also have a professional license that allows me to access various legal records that are sealed to certain laypeople.

Hmmm.

@mika0116

You can search someone’s name and business in the legal systems online and find whatever there is to find about someone. Granted, I was a forensic investigator before my PE/IB and tech days, so I have above average skills compared to most people to find information. If something is public record, I’ll find it in less than 48 hours.
I can easily doxx just about anyone on this forum unless they’re sharp and use multiple forms of cyber security protection (but don’t because it is illegal regardless of how fun it is)

Well… that’s a strange comment to just lob out there in the middle of this discussion. I guess we have different ideas of what is “fun.”

@mika0116

The trainers were a pair - LLC’d together and separately under multiple enterprises over 2 decades.
They had several folks sue them - some super wealthy clients some more middle of the road income levels ($500k/year income ish (based on public records of salary bands for where they worked - IB/PE/hedge funds and tech all publicly post avg income of all their levels) vs the double digit 7 figure/year income of the client I reference in the above comment)

I can appreciate better what you are saying now, if these trainers have a 20 year history involving multiple suits. I’m a little struck by how much research you apparently put into determining what income bracket the various parties fell into. I guess it’s just thorough research.

@mika0116

Some were small claims, but some were for much higher, but the AWARD themselves at the end of some of the lawsuits were minimal (IMO proportional to the cost of all the legal process) not the damages.

Fair enough. Could you tell if various parties were ever able to actually collect anything relative to the awards involved? Just idle curiosity on my part.

@mika0116

All this to say - accessing public records and the ability to discern truth from veritable sources is how I did / know all of the above.

Fair enough

[mika0116]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

Fair enough. Could you tell if various parties were ever able to actually collect anything relative to the awards involved? Just idle curiosity on my part.

Yes - by asking this I venture to say you have not ever read legal court proceedings yourself before? Collection documentation can be complex depending on the jurisdiction and may not may not be attached to the original case. Sometimes you can easily find a Writ of Execution, etc. I recommend reading a few case proceedings yourself to get a feel for the information within in your locale which is VA (county documentation may differ).

Well… that’s a strange comment to just lob out there in the middle of this discussion. I guess we have different ideas of what is “fun.”

Just an example of how “easy” for those with training to find information as you seem surprised about the current public records process regarding legal processes. I would hope as it was / is my profession that I would find it - “fun”. I am very blessed to enjoy how I make $$.

I’m a little struck by how much research you apparently put into determining what income bracket the various parties fell into. I guess it’s just thorough research.

I take this to mean you are surprised how easy it is find a relative bracket of income for most individuals - it is about a 40 second search if you know where to look. It is natural habit for me at this point as again I am trained professionally to do this, the skills don’t just “turn off”. The filing party’s income was important to know as did they feel it was worth it to sue out of NEED or out of desire to protect others. I found both.

Thorough research and pattern confirmation is how I make $$ and how I live my life. Said trainers were from my junior years - by the time I was ready to buy, I was an adult with more understanding of the world and how to find information.

It is great at finding liars and folks who embellish the truth for their own insecurities and gains - I avoid them upon my research. I run a sort of background check on all romantic partners (and their families) and close friends

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@mika0116

Yes - by asking this I venture to say you have not ever read legal court proceedings yourself before?

I’m sure your knowledge & expertise is far superior.

But back to my question… did anyone ever collect anything from these litigation efforts involving these trainers? Or… did the trainers skate by? Perhaps by dissolving LLCs, starting new ones, etc etc.

@mika0116

Just an example of how “easy” for those with training to find information as you seem surprised about the current public records process regarding legal processes. I would hope as it was / is my profession that I would find it - “fun”. I am very blessed to enjoy how I make $$.

I was actually just surprised by your choice to talk about doxxing as fun. But whatever. It’s great that you are so satisfied with your own career. Good for you.

@mika0116

I take this to mean you are surprised how easy it is find a relative bracket of income for most individuals - it is about a 40 second search if you know where to look. It is natural habit for me at this point as again I am trained professionally to do this, the skills don’t just “turn off”. The filing party’s income was important to know as did they feel it was worth it to sue out of NEED or out of desire to protect others. I found both.

That’s great that you have professional skills that you are proud of. It seems like you are inferring certain motivations to the litigants involved in these situations, in part because of their respective income brackets. I don’t know about that. Sometimes people sue because they feel vindictive. Plenty of wealthy people do that. Just depends on the situation.

@mika0116

Thorough research and pattern confirmation is how I make $$ and how I live my life. Said trainers were from my junior years - by the time I was ready to buy, I was an adult with more understanding of the world and how to find information.

That’s great that you have a career that you find rewarding. It’s too bad you had negative experiences with trainers as a junior. Hopefully now that you are an adult and have the benefit of life experiences and some maturity you can connect with great professionals and have a more positive experience with buying horses, training, showing, etc.

@mika0116

It is great at finding liars and folks who embellish the truth for their own insecurities and gains - I avoid them upon my research. I run a sort of background check on all romantic partners (and their families) and close friends

Interesting.

[mika0116]

Thanks! I hope you learned something new about the public records process and use it in some of your next ventures!

And yes, motivations for humans center around: money, power, religion, and sex. Some folks blend sex and power, but I personally feel they’re different.

That sums up just about all the motivations of humans. We are such simple entities, yeah?

Vindictive falls under power or rather perceived power as we never really have power over others in totality, do we??

[SpicyPRE]

All ads for the horse are now gone. Or she is advertising him under something else.

@RavtoadOH did you feel comfortable that the horse is as advertised?

[Rumorhasit93]

Total side note from this thread, but I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading about your profession! I always thought if I didn’t end up doing what I do now, I’d love to do something like this.

And for fun, I’d love to see what you could dig up on me! Lol

[RavtoadOH]

Oh he most definitely wasn’t shown as advertised in the slightest. That the issue here. No mention of his bolting, no mention of any behavioral issues or needing an experienced rider, even after my incident with him. The fact that she posted the last ad the same day after I was severely hurt and intentionally removed his name, and correct sire spelling so he was less searchable. Stating that the horse was bored with her and needed more stimulation, etc. it’s just beyond deceptive and someone did/will get severely hurt again because of it. Not to mention this horse’s welfare if he is sold to an unsuspecting buyer.

I have various iterations of her previous ads that are even more out there with false information.

Also side note, she’s probably seen what’s been posted here at this point. Whatever she chooses to do with that, I have no idea. I ceased all communication with her and stated anything further would be from my attorney.

[Aussie_2020]

@mika0116 There are a few legal or research professionals on coth. It’s always a treat when they take the time to respond with their knowledge on these threads. I’m glad you are here, it’s amazing to hear how easily and quickly a trained pro can find info. (There also a couple of folks that think they’re smarter than the average bear so we deal with that too, as did you )

[SpicyPRE]

I meant say his breeding. Were you comfortable that the horse is who he is thought to be? Dam/sire perspective

[mika0116]

My semi-serious retirement plan is a P.I.

Too many conflicts of interest for the path I am on now as largely my investigative skills these days are more related to human < > machine interactions for corporate profit.

It is a blessing and a curse - people close to 50% of the time represent to others what they WISH they were vs what is more representative of their reality.

But it is also great for really understanding folk’s situations (or past situations) helps shed light on the why / how they come to act (or rather react) in the present day.

An example of how it has been useful: friend was purchasing a house, competitive 7 figure sale price a few years ago. I researched the owner and found the house was bought by her father via a trust (so deductively she had no mortgage). I also found that she was recently divorced and had a 10 year old child. I found the father only had custody on one weekend a month as he was a lawyer who traveled a lot. I found her father who bought the house was a semi public figure and was ill and aging. I found public facebook group posts where owner was looking for cheap labor to maintain the home / property & expressed exasperation and sadness. I found that owner worked in low paying, but humanitarian field.

I mentioned this to the friend and indicated that they should start with exactly the asking price & write a heartfelt letter about their own humanitarian professional background

I figured fair deal even during a hot market as 100% of the proceeds would be pocketed by the owner as the house was paid off and was itching to get out of a house filled with divorce memories to care for her parent.

Friend got the house in 2 hours at asking. (Owner) Accepted immediately despite being scolded by her realtor to wait for the BIG offer.

[mika0116]

Awh, thanks. I’m neurodiverse as fuck and sort of often come off pedantic and esoteric (and a few other things that some folks here might have choice words for… lol).

I’ve admitted on this forum before that I use this forum to share the love of horses, but to also work on my “people skills” and “communication”.

I don’t really interact much with the stratification of the what I call the “General Population” and my immediate family, close friends, partner, and workmates are all equally as esoteric / “subject matter experts” in their given area.

I like it here, I learn a ton! I hope I can share info with others!

[CBoylen]

You sound like an extremely useful friend. Please come for a beer any time.

[mika0116]

Wait til I tell you about a connection of mine who is a FORENSIC LIBRARIAN/ ARCHIVIST… he scares me, even, with what he can find. It is… shocking and he is fast.

[Aussie_2020]

A “government” friend looked me up while I was at his home and I was shocked at what he could find. He found more about my financial business than I did. I actually copied a few dates of house sales and mortgage payoffs.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@RavtoadOH

Also side note, she’s probably seen what’s been posted here at this point. Whatever she chooses to do with that, I have no idea. I ceased all communication with her and stated anything further would be from my attorney.

Well… if she has seen what has been posted here, she can always create an account and come give her side of the story. That’s a fairly common response to threads like this.

Probably best to funnel stuff through your attorney from here on out.

Hope you are feeling better now. It sounds like it was a nasty fall, and that truly stinks.