Trying to get calories in... looking for a grain change

Hi all!

So I have an OTTB that seems to want to stay on the leaner side. You can’t see his ribs, but he lacks that plumpness you get from weight, not muscle.

He is currently getting the following:

AM
3lbs of Carb Care Performance (Southern States)
1 cup of Platinum Performance Healthy Weight
1 scoop of Fish Oil
1 scoop of Mg
1 scoop of ADR Powder
1 cup of Aloe Vera Juice

PM
3lbs of Carb Care Performance (Southern States)
1 cup of Aloe Vera Juice

I will be moving my horses home in a couple months and starting my research on trying to simplify things. Id love a grain that has the high calorie count without needing to add them but not make them hot. My current places to get grain would be Southern States or Tractor supply so would need to come from there.

Thanks!

How much and what kind of hay? Try to get a weight, not a # of flakes.

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Hay may be harder to do. We fill a cotton hay net up with orchard grass mix but that lasts him a couple days. He does get a compressed flake of alfalfa that is about 3-4lbs.

I feed the CarbCare Performance, too, and like it quite a lot for my hard keeping TBs. One of the really nice things about it, IMO, is how dense it is–so you can still get some poundage into those horses who aren’t real keen on a lot of volume.

If you’re looking for more kcals/lb, though, You might like Ultium. It’s up in the 1800 range, IIRC.

I’d probably double the alfalfa before changing up the grain.

Aloe Vera has been shown to be pretty ineffective for ulcers. Might be something easy to skip to simplify. Can you link us to the rest of the products you’re using?

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If you can’t see his ribs he is fat enough. A picture would be useful but I expect he is lacking muscle and top line, not calories per se. If that is true you want to pay attention to his protein and work him slowly and consistently to build back his topline.

That plumpness you get from weight not muscle is a risk factor for heading towards obesity and metabolic problems.

IMHO obesity is the number one health risk for pet horses and indeed a very hard one to battle with an easy keeper in moderate work. I have my mare on a constant diet as I watch the older horses around me founder and eventually be put down.

If however you do need a high calorie low carb fattener, I would suggest a high fat pellet. We have a nice one locally that is basically alfalfa meal and vegetable oil. I think it’s a fairly standard formulation that lots of feed companies produce in some variation.

And a general vitamin mineral supplement or ration balancers fed at full dose to get all the nutrients.

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I agree a picture would be helpful here. Not being able to (easily?) see ribs means his weight is fine. Not seeing ribs tells me he does need some “plumpness” that comes from better muscling.

How old is he? What’s his work?

But that doesn’t mean that feed is fine, so you may need a different feed with a different (or better) amino acid profile, a bit more protein, maybe a bit more fat, something.

That doesn’t sound like much hay. Does he get pasture?

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More hay. Try straight alfalfa or up the grain? Wormed lately or dental up to date?

You might try adding something like Nutrena Empower, its a high fat (22%) to his grain. I’d be tempted to skip the aloe Vera, both powder and juice don’t really the point of it. If you are worried about ulcers, try Purina Ultima Gastric and add something like gastric guard or some other ulcer supplement. If you suspect ulcers then use Succeed, paste works great, use it for 90 days.

Hey all!!

@JB I agree, I want to see if maybe there is something better for him out there. I totally get all horses are different, but there are just so many options hoping you guys can narrow them down for me! :slight_smile:

So some added info!

The Aloe Vera has definitely helped him. Now whether its something in his tummy its helping or something else, we noticed an immediate difference after about a week on it. So I do mind that part. I had just figured there had to be something grain/hay wise that could add calories.

He is 15yo, 15.3 TB. He is a jumper and we are currently showing in the 1.0m classes. I ride him about 5-6 times a day. Some days just 20m minutes other days longer. One of he days includes an hour lesson. He is fit. He definitely needs some muscle I know that and have been working on transitions and pole work. Trying to start adding field work, but sadly lacking in the hills that will really help. We have a small “loop” of trails that has a good hill so I cool down on that and make him walk up it, not safe to trot (he would totally trip all over the place).

I have just gotten comments that they think he needs more weight. You ask me I am very happy where he is. I think hes right where I would want him. Photo link below taken Sunday.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/e1qmg1cmqTw3Bh5B3

So too much protein for him revs him up. We tried the Purina Supersport thats high in protein and helps with various muscle items but he was nuts and not manageable so he is no longer on it. Alfalfa is about all he can have that wont make him completely high, but again too much will. As for the pounds, again it was an estimate. The flakes are compressed and have a good amount of weight to them. He is out on very good pasture for 15+ hours a day and inside the other times.

Links to other items:

ADR Powder:
https://www.equivision.com/products/adr-paste-or-powder

Fish Oil:
https://www.equivision.com/products/fish-oil-factor-granular-meal

Platinum Performance Healthy Weight:
https://www.platinumperformance.com/equine-healthy-weight

Hi all!

@JB That is what I am going for, hoping something out there that would be better than he is currently on

So while I know many of you say drop the Aloe, I can honestly say it has done wonder for him. Now whatever its doing if stomach issues or other, it is working and makes a difference so I am okay with keeping it.

My guy is 15yo, 15.3 little jumper. We are showing at he 1.0m height. He gets worked 4-5 days a week with workouts that range from 20 minutes to an hour.

He is on good pasture for 15+ hours a day and then stalled the remaining time. The alfalfa he gets is high quality. The weight was a guess but the flakes are compressed and have a good amount of weight to them and he cleans it up.

He is not a candidate for a high protein diet, it definitely sets him off. We tried the Purina Supersport and he was high as a kite and pretty unmanageable. We tried the Tri-Amios as well with really no difference. Alfalfa seems to be safe, but he is getting a good amount of that.

I have no doubt he needs more muscling and have been working on that. Side note: Horse had an injury that caused stall time and a rehab program. Came out back to a regular routine in February with no issues going forward. He is fit, but working on the muscle part. I try lots of long and low, transitions, and pole work. I am starting to ride him out more often but no hills to work on so makes it harder. (Any ideas are welcome with my current situation) Luckily when I move him end of the year my place has TONS of hills so I can ride out and work on them all over :slight_smile:

So here is a photo I took Sunday. Personally I feel he looks good. I am happy with him but had many comments that just say I just want more weight one him…

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BaCrWgB9EUxW0Dhr2

Product Links:

ADR Powder (AMAZING ulcer prevention that works fantastic for him)
https://www.equivision.com/products/adr-paste-or-powder

Fish Oil Factor:
https://www.equivision.com/products/fish-oil-factor-granular-meal

Platinum Performance Healthy Weight:
https://www.platinumperformance.com/equine-healthy-weight

Not a lot of help, but Ultra Cruz makes a flax oil that is cheaper than Platinum’s. You could maybe do that and add some to the evening meal as well, although that is a lot of oil. I have personally not found aloe juice to be helpful. Could he get 2 flakes of the alfalfa?

I can cram 60 pounds (plus) into a net. Can’t really say that a net full every two days isn’t enough hay without knowing just how much hay is in that net.

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Off hand, 3-4 lbs of alfalfa for an 1100lb horse is a snack, not a meal. Think you could go up at least 50% on that. I’d double it to a more meaningful amount. That’s still as an addition to 20lbs minimum of regular hay split into as many feedings as possible or free choice.

My experience with “orchard grass mix " is there’s not much weight to it, can easily lift a bale, it varies greatly from batch to batch depending on what’s in the " mix” and you end up feeding more. Mine always got about 10 lbs of alfalfa on top of OG mix. When we fed alfalfa mix, it was 24 or so lbs a day in three feedings and needed little supplementation.

So those who say to drop the Aloe, I have seen a major difference in my horse with the Aloe. Whatever its doing for him whether stomach or something else it has helped him so will keep him on it.

The alfalfa we feed is straight alfalfa. Its a compressed flake so not just a flake and has a hefty weight. I can see if there is a scale at the barn that can support it but its pretty heavy. My earlier assumption was just a guess.

He is out on good grass, especially right now, about 15+ hours a day and in the rest of the time. On cooler days they only come in to eat and go right back out.

I guess you can consider him a finicky eater, by that I mean too much oil and too many powder regardless of flavor he will eventually turn he nose at it. Hence why Id really like to get away from too much oil.

I honestly believe he is of good weight, he definitely needs muscle but I see no ribs. The photo below is from this past Sunday. He is a 15yo OTTB, about 15.3H. He is a jumper and we compete at 1.0m height but school a bit higher at times. His general workouts are about 4-5 days a week, one of those a lesson, the other all flat days ranging from 20 to 60 minutes.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TlMYpKqDJ3KeC2Re2

We have tried to add more protein to his diet but he is easily affect by protein and will become unmanageable. He is a War Horse, been there done it kinda dude from the track. He has the tude to match it as well. So when he gets strong hes strong and opinionated and has no problem flipping the bird to anyone while on too much protein. And please dont go into this is a training issue, my issue at hand is trying to find a higher calorie diet for my horse.

Have you considered either wheat bran or rice bran? We have had good success adding either of those in to the standard ration for some that need the extra calories. And it is very palatable so your finicky guy might not turn up his nose at it either.

He’s in great weight. He doesn’t need more. Would 50lb make him fat? No. But his BCS looks lovely.

I don’t even really see him lacking muscle. Many TBs will never be beefy. I’d like to see some more muscling along the top of his neck, but that takes years to develop, and he may simply be of a type that isn’t going to put it on there.

I would guess that compressed alfalfa flake is more than 3-4lb. I’d guess at least 5, and possibly 6-7. Assuming he’s eating a good 20-22lb of forage (dry weight), then 5lb alfalfa on top of that would be 25% of that, and 6-7lb is still in the ideal 20-30% range. Too much alfalfa can get some horses into trouble with some extra heat generation (not where we want to go this time of year), or some electrolyte imbalance (high calcium, though generally only a problem if that grass/grass hay happens to be high in ca, which is not common), and the calories can be excess energy instead of weight for some horses as well. Either way, this horse doesn’t need more of either, from the look and sound of it :slight_smile: You COULD replace some of the grass hay in his net with some alfalfa, but again, that’s an increase in calories.

TC Sr would be a great option to try, with the same 10% fat, but a bump in protein. Or, you could add 1/2-1lb of a ration balancer, either the CarbCare Balance or, preferably, the ProElite Diet Balancer if you don’t have TC at your Southern States. TC30 is another option.

His issue may simply be that he needs more amino acids. Not necessarily more crude protein, just more lysine and methionine. The cheap easy way to do that is Tri-Amino or Nutramino.

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Me too, but then I can’t climb the stool and lift it up to hang it. So I put about 40 lbs in a net, and it lasts 2-3 days, but my horses are only in the stall 5-6 hours a day. So really I should have asked how much hay/pasture the horse is getting a day.

I’ve been doing a double dose of Nutramino (2 scoops a day) for the past several months in lieu of extra alfalfa or upping his concentrates (he wasn’t looking great or feeling great along his topline but was starting to give up the starving teenager look and get a bit of a belly). It’s really seemed to help. I’d been on the fence about it in the past, because I had tried feeding RBs or top dressing with them and/or single scoops of Nutramino with not great results. It was suggested that I up his amino acids further due to some overall neuromuscular problems. Vet suggested just lysine but I tried Nutramino again with 2 scoops, and it’s been great!

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