So, every now and then I hear this from different people. Is this true and if so why? If this is not true where do people get this notion. Thanks all.
IMO and experience I don’t think it is as much about being “built better” but more like “built” differently.
I say this in context to when yearlings are being inspected/selected having worked on/with selection/inspection “teams” at the sales here and in England/Ireland.
Horses that with conformation that suggests they would be better suited for the Turf tend to have longer pasterns and a bit more length to their back. They can be a little “lighter” in bone also. They need/should have a “wider” foot than average.
These “types” would be dismissed by people who are looking strictly for dirt runners. Who prefer the horse to be more on the short coupled side of things, shorter but proportional pastern, with proper angles but not too upright. Not a small foot but certainly not “platter” size. Their canon bone to be more on the short side of average.
As to;
“If this is not true where do people get this notion”
IMO most of this sort of “stuff” starts with a “name” saying it. It gets passed on, around, down as “gospel”. Like just about all things horse, entirely subjective and hard to prove who’s opinion is right and who’s is wrong.
I would concur with gumtree. Every time I read the subject I think “better than what” 
I suspect that most turf horses are “built” better for turf than dirt and vice versa.
there are certainly specific conformational traits that may make a horse predisposed to run better on dirt vs turf, as gumtree certainly touched base on.
i don’t think one is sounder than the other, or better, generally, but one might suit your intended discipline better…
what the question should really boil down to is ‘sprinter’ or ‘stayer’ – and what your discipline is.
**when I say IME, i am referring to my personal experience, not all horses out there:
IME turf horses tend to be rangier and much more straight-legged with a low set stifle. i usually see a much longer forearm and as gumtree said, slightly longer pasterns and longer backs. typical stayer build, with a nice set neck.
IME dirt horses tend to be more squat and compact, some are more downhill (but not all) with compact legs and a not-too uphill neck. they usually are more compact through their frame with more angulation behind and high stifles.
this is a fantastic read because it explains with visual representation of several important sires, if you have the time:
http://jwequine.com/jwequine/pdf/CTBA-Conf-Intro.pdf
The steeplechase horse in UK is a very different animal to what we see here for the flat races. Big feet, true.
Stayers, good event types.
When injured, time is taken to bring them back, and they are in winning form up to their teens.
Grand National is over 4 miles of effort.
I think the “better” is related to turf horses tending, especially if they come from Europe, to have conformation which is “better” suited to being a sport horse. The typical american bred dirt horse has lost some of that versatility (IMO) being a bit too sprinter/quarter horsey in conformation. I wouldn’t say that they are “better” horses, just perhaps “better” suited to certain after track activities.
Thanks everyone. All of you have pretty much touched on the same thing which is exactly what I think people are trying to say. But your answers puts it to rest for me.
Beowulf thank you for the article as it really breaks it down.
John Gosden, though not directly, alludes to some of thinking on this subject in this TDC interview and this might be of some interest to the discussion.
Interesting comments. I buy a lot of horses for resale and my favorite horses are always the steeplechase horses that I am lucky enough to buy for many of the reasons stated above. A bit longer with bigger feet and bigger bone. They tend to be more uphill, slightly rangier in body type, lower set hocks and a bit longer in the pastern. They tend to mover and go like sport horses because they are just built in the bridle naturally.
I just sold this incredible timber horses last week and I have two other steeplechase horses in my barn who are simply outstanding.
I have a turf horse. I liked that aspect of him because there aren’t as many turf races so it is harder to find something to run them in, so they have fewer races while still staying in work. I am sure this is not universally true but I am in close contact with his breeder and he says it was always a challenge to find appropriate races for my game but not particularly talented horse. Finally he ran out of races and that is how I got him.
Mine is a Deputy Minister/Storm Cat grandson and is quite compact and a bit downhill. That said he is a super jumper and has retrained to have a lovely canter.
Breeder says Deputy Minister is a “hidden turf” sire. I am not an expert in TB breeding, I am sure gumtree and others can speak more to how true that is.
There are plenty of turf horses that are flat-only, mine did not race over fences. I have had a hurdle horse before and he was super cool but hard to reschool because he was not careful, which I always blamed on the brush – he’d jump anything though and was SO FUN to ride. Dead honest and would jump 5’ the same as 2’6. I have heard timber horses are more careful and are easier to reschool than hurdlers. Again, I don’t know for sure but that one was never careful enough to showjump with any degree of success. I got him to where he’d be a consistent 4 faulter type but that took a lot of work. the one time he won a class it was truly a cause for celebration! He was very rangy like JLeegriffith says, and a solid 17 hands or more. He didn’t have much of a trot but had a nice canter. I would buy another horse with jump racing experience but probably look for a timber horse next time. I did just love how game he was, I don’t think that horse would have stopped for anything.
I haven’t had any issues with chaser being careful at all but I find most of the trainers put a lot of jump schooling into them besides just run and jump…or should I say the trainers I get them from. Most have done grids, foxhunted and more in between running over fences. I do like turf horses as well (those who haven’t run over fences) and one plus is they tend to have less starts and be a bit sounder since they haven’t been run into the ground.
My experiance has been chasers can Run and Jump…but tend to have a flat long reach over a fence and yes are not as careful…Back in the day we used to,hunt these horses in the off season same with Timber and they were sure footed could jump at a dead run in any footing…Now a days not so much hunting just lots of portable fences…They also run later n stay sound longer with the short seasons. A lot still have very old fashioned pedigrees not so much the Modern Thoroughbred pedigree we see in dirt horses…I don t generally fancy Hurdlers or Steeplechasers for Sports horse…if they are any good they have to,quick a jump style…
Since I’ve seen all 3 labels used in this thread, I’ll ask here
What is the difference between a “chaser” a “timber horse” & a “hurdler”?
Thanks
[QUOTE=mommy peanut;8908182]
Since I’ve seen all 3 labels used in this thread, I’ll ask here
What is the difference between a “chaser” a “timber horse” & a “hurdler”?Thanks :)[/QUOTE]
This might help.
http://freeracingtips.com/whats-the-difference-between-a-hurdle-race-and-a-chase/
Timber is just hurdles over a fix wooden or log fence. Ouch!
[QUOTE=mommy peanut;8908182]
Since I’ve seen all 3 labels used in this thread, I’ll ask here
What is the difference between a “chaser” a “timber horse” & a “hurdler”?
Thanks :)[/QUOTE]
They mean slightly different things on each side of the Atlantic. The link Shammy gave is for British and Irish NH racing. There a Hurdle is smaller, 3’6" and collapsible, so if a horse hits it hard enough it falls. The races are generally shorter, 2 miles being the classic distance, and run at a fast clip. A horse doesn’t need to be a particularly good jumper, though he still needs to be careful.
A chaser jumps bigger stiffer fences, generally in the 4’6" range, and the races are generally longer, ‘classic’ distance being about 3m to 3-1/4m. There is a division of Chasers called 2mile, or ‘champion’ chasers (so called because of the Queen Mothet Champion Chase at Cheltenham), that jump the big fences over the shorter 2 mile distance. Those horses are incredible to watch because they are racing at hurdle speed, so they have to be foot perfect over the fences as any error can be catastrophic and unrecoverable.
In the US, which the horses most people on this thread are referring to, ‘Hurdlers’ mostly jump what are called ‘National’ fences, a plastic portable fence that falls somewhere between a Hurdle and Chasing fence on the other side of the ocean, i.e. taller than a Hurdle, but not as big and as stiff as a true Chasing fence.
Timber racing is a uniquely American niche and involves jumping fences made of timber rails. A horse needs to be a good and more careful jumper to jump these, as you can’t brush through them. Most timber fences are in the 4ft range, but in the Maryland Hunt Cup and Virginia Gold Cup they are up around 5ft, so as you can imagine you need a horse that can practically Show Jump. Ain’t no messing around there.
Here are some visual aids…
American Grand National, over ‘National fences’ (what is referred to as a ‘hurdle’ stateside), 2m5f… https://youtu.be/u8jufvwZNb4
Maryland Hunt Cup, 4miles over Timber fences, the blue Riband of Timber racing… https://youtu.be/OwLTfnYiBMA
Champion Hurdle 2miles at Cheltenham… https://youtu.be/Hsj81XUqdmI
Gold Cup, Chase, 3m2f at Cheltenham, the blue ribband of British and Irish Chasing… https://youtu.be/OhrUKlQIzTc
WOW thanks everyone. There is an incredible amount of excellent information on this thread much more than I hoped for. Since I like the bigger boned TB’s but know little about the turf horses I am wondering about bloodlines. If there are any that really stand out for producing a horse with substance along with jumping ability. If you could please tell me any bloodlines you find most attractive conformation/performance wise. I hope you don’t mind me being inquisitive. I just know so little about the turf horses.
Thanks for the info Shammy & Drvm
I knew there were/are fences that looked different, but didn’t realize the why/what behind them.
So I would assume it wouldn’t be normal for a horse to crossover into these different types of races?
In the UK and Ireland it is standard for a younger horse to go over hurdles and then, as it matures and strengthens, move on to chasing. It is unusual to have a chaser younger than about 6 or 7. These days, many flat horses also go on to a second race career over jumps. Sometimes a horse decides it is a hurdler and sticks with that but a lot of horses improve once they have bigger fences. A NH horse’s racing life can last into their early teens. Because they stay around season after season, the jump horses tend to have a much stronger public profile and people will travel to see their favourites run. It is lovely to see a big racing crowd wearing scarves and ties in the racing colours of their horse hero.
