"Turning Loose"

[Fillabeana]

Tonight, just for the heck of it, half-way there, I stopped and…invited him to turn his head toward me by just kind of lifting the lead rope without /pulling/ on it. It wasn’t a proper “twirling” of the head as I suppose he turned his head too far, but it was a relaxed turn, with no tautness in the lead rope or in either of us really. Just a small thing really, but it reminded me of this thread so I thought I’d share.

Lovely!
Harry Whitney expresses often that it takes no pressure to move a thought… “Between the reins, is a thought”

I love how you slowed down and gave ‘reaching for your horse’ a try.
That invitation…and then the horse looking to follow your (literal) lead, that is a great definition of ‘feel’. And ‘reaching for each other’. And ‘turning loose’. And ‘observe, remember, and compare’- go TRY something, see what happens, let the horse, and your own experience within yourself, tell you how it was.

I had an experience a little like that last summer. I was taking the horses out of the trailer, and noticed at the last moment that my TB gelding was off to the side, not in the center. Which is a problem, because he was saddled and the horn could have caught on the supports right before he stepped down.
I saw that wreck shaping up, and saw the alternative possibility (step left so you don’t get hung up) shaping up as well. I pulled the lead rope toward me though it had a big loop in it (I didn’t make any actual sideways pull to the halter). He felt my intention, he ‘felt for me’ when I asked for his attention. He was fortunately at the stage in his stride that was EXACTLY right to ask him to change the trajectory of his left front leg…and he stepped left, out of harm’s way, and out of the middle of the trailer.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=froglander;7466917]
Okay, this is probably a dumb question, but I’ve seen the term used many places and I feel like I don’t quite understand. What does it mean to “reach for the horse”? When I think “reach” I think moving toward something, but that doesn’t seem right, so I /think/ it means to pick up the rein? But then that seems contrary to the word reach, so I’ve never really been sure :([/QUOTE]

Half allegory, half plain ol’ mechanics.

To me, this “reaching toward one another” means that when you ask for something from you horse, say, a canter transition, or some bend, you have a set of things you do, preferably in a chronological order. Some of those get called an aid. Some of those are things you think about consciously and other things you might not think about. (E. g. do you look up when you ask for the canter? Do you inhale when you feel the first hind leg step into the gait?) And even prior to that, you make a mental plan.

To me, then, to “reach toward each other” means that when you ask, you do as little as possible, and only as many steps in your “ask” sequence as need be. The horse reaching back is the one that does what you want, way, way early in the progression.

I used to ride a well-schooled TB who would canter if you raised your eyebrow (on the side of the lead you wanted) and inhaled. Or at least, that’s the signal I knew I was giving. Someone else might have told themselves that they just “thought ‘canter’”.

With the reins, I imagine it to be when you have a drape in your inside rein and go to pick it up to ask for a bend. Rather than letting you straighten out that rein and pull, the horse follows it around with the same drape in it. It’s very pretty and it feels great.

[Foxtrot_s]

I so hear you all - it is the most wonderful feeling in the world. It ties into the feeling of ‘being present’ with your horse - total focus without tension…you know it when you have it. With us it does not happen all the time - but those moments do happen.

With my horse’s mother, she had a brace in her, was very bold, energetic, brave, but when the chips were down, and I was in the present with her, miracles happened.

[re-runs]

When I got my mare she was just a weanling. We were walking down our lane, she and I, corn field on one side, hay field on the other. You could not see over the corn, it was already that tall. Lots of critters hang out in this corn field; raccoon, deer and occasionally a coyote. It was a windy day and the wind whipped through the corn leaves and was pretty loud. When we got about a 16th of a mile from my buildings in the curve in the lane, she turned her head slightly towards me brushed her nose against my arm. I knew what she was asking;…“Is it ok?” I took my hand and ran it down her neck and over here shoulder, like her mother would have done. Without words I said, “It`s ok”. I felt her sigh a little and let out some air. We walked on calmly and enjoyed ourselves.

The above recollection was her reaching for me, I reaching back to her and assuring her and then we went on together confidently. I still have this horse and we still have that kind of relationship. I will never forget that day and how good that felt. I bet it felt good to her too.

One example of what it is like to be mounted on this horse:

We are walking in the back pasture, taking in the sights, sounds and smells of the day, swinging along relaxed like. I pick up my rein and with my body I suggest we trot out to where the fence needs fixing. She almost simultaniously softens towards my rein hand just a little, drops her nose just a bit. I can feel her gather herself up to match my energy…she says to me “Sounds like a good idea, lets go, I`m ready.” We trot off together.

This example is me reaching for her, her reaching back to me, and we go together.

“Turning Loose” for the human can mean letting go of ego, putting the horse first, feeling what they are feeling, leveling the plane but that is just my feelings about it. Turning Loose for the horse can mean letting go of their self preservation. It`s been described as 'suredness", “OK ness” also.

There is a book that Tom Dorrance recommended, it is called Kinship with All Life by J. Allen Boone. It is mainly about the relationship that a dog named Strongheart has with a human.
It took me years to understand what the message of the book really was and a person really has to “let go” to get it, at least that is how it was for me. Just remember when you read it, Toms words of "Its all around you".

[Pocket_Pony]

I practiced a little bit today with how little I could do. Before I got on Mac I did some ground work because I hadn’t ridden him in two weeks due to rain. In our ground work session, I had him back from me and stand there and I stood in front of him, facing him. I wanted to practice him following a feel and intention for how much movement. Usually from this position if I open my hand/arm in a direction, my intention is for him to walk in that direction. This time I wanted him to just barely turn his head, to give his attention to my intention, which was not to move his feet, just his focus . . . his ears, eyes, and a minor flexion. And he did! One direction was better than the other, but he did get it. And it was very interesting for me to just change my intent and have him tune in to that.

I don’t know if that was turning loose or not, but it was a fun exercise.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7467538]

I wonder where you started riding English that they didn’t teach that?[/QUOTE]

I’d say my first lessons were at a typical crappy lesson barn in the US in the 1970s. I didn’t get a lunge lesson until I was in high school and working for a family farm.

In the US, I don’t think you’d ever get a lunge lesson if you “took lessons” at a place with a school horse program. I think most of those lessons were group lessons, so no lunging one rider at a time for an hour. And I’m pretty sure most places wouldn’t have a horse who would lift his back for you if you put him in side reins.

Maybe others had better quality experiences.

[Pocket_Pony]

My experience was the same as mvp’s. Until a couple years ago, I’ve always been “in training” - either via a school-horse lesson program, or having a horse in full training, to finally having them at home and hauling out for weekly lessons. In all that time (30+ years of riding), I’ve had less than a handful of longe lessons. It just isn’t something that is done in h/j land, at least not in any barn I’ve ever been in, and even when I switched to dressage I can’t say I’ve ever known a trainer who has made it a part of their program.

And what I love about the BB-style stuff that I’ve learned is learning about timing and feel. Again, it isn’t something that was EVER discussed in my english lessons. Ever. I think I’ve developed decent feel over the years, but in the past year it has improved more quickly based on what I learned from watching the 7 Clinics and participating in person.

[Fancy_That]

PoPo - that is awesome. You will see when we are at Harry Whitney’s…he will have a horse simply change it’s THOUGHT. He’ll have it “Look over there”, now “Look over here”, and he waits for a change. In order for a horse to go along with your thought, he has to let go of his own thought. Horses are always full of their own thoughts, and the harder they hang on to a thought, whilst you are asking for another…the more…ahem…trouble arises (trouble can be as slight as a brace/resistance, all the way to head toss, and then even more antics…just depends on the horse)

Anyways, I’m glad to hear all this conversation. It is easier SAID than DONE I worked on it throughout my whole session with Fancy yesterday. She has taken to bracing when I pick up the left rein - my fault entirely - so I literally have slowed it down and taken things all the way back to ZERO.

Reaching for the horse, and having the horse reach back to you…to me, another big part of that, is the horse being READY and PREPARED. The horse does not have his “Worry Cup Full”…the cup is empty and ready for your direction. To me, the horse being READY, PREPARED and the ability for your INTENTION to shape up to be the horses’ INTENTION at the same time…that is just nirvana.

BTW - I’ve probably NEVER had that happen, but for MOMENTS, and those moments being fairly spread… Even though I study this and try. It really is hard to have a horse truly THERE. It’s what all Master Horsemen strive for.

To me, the key to that, is the horses’ mind. It cannot be distracted, unfocused, anxious, confused, worried or lack confidence.

The rider must be so CLEAR and CONSISTENT IN COMMUNICATION. Once those two things are achieved, and the horse has true understanding…voila

I may never get there…and I’ve been riding for 35 years, though just became aware of this better way within the last 5 years.

[froglander]

I’ve had this and other threads in mind the last couple days when riding. Yesterday we went on a trail ride with a couple of greenies–Cody had to be the steady leader. One of the gals hadn’t been on her horse in almost 3 weeks and he was the greenest of all (she confessed this halfway through the ride) and it took her an hour of groundwork to feel okay enough to get on. She does a lot of Parelli stuff with this horse and sent him off for training for about 3 months a year ago, but he still has a tendency to lose it at the mounting block, or something else will set him off and he bucks but it’s like his mind has just switched off or something. (Sorry, whole barn has thought for a long time he is not the right match for her but she is determined to get there with this horse, I want to say she’s had him for at least 3+ years?).

Anyway, while she was doing her groundwork, I was riding Cody around the trailer parking area and his mind was everywhere but on me. I was at a bit of a loss as to the best way to get his attention back, but I was trying to just do a lot of changes of direction and not go “death grip” on the reins when he felt like he was speeding up. Not sure how successful I was but he confidently lead our little group of 3 (5 later) around the park, through a big field, and across a bridge without hesitation that he has hesitated at and then followed another horse across in the past. Was proud of my pony

Today, we rode in the arena and we started off with big loopy changing circles on a loose rein and trying to follow the idea of a turn which went alright until we added trot and canter to the mix.

He got kinda zoomy at the canter and while my instinct in the past has been to tense up and check him back, I tried to catch myself and let him go until he kinda relaxed back into his usual canter. There were a couple times though that it felt like without the fence he wouldn’t have stopped Started trying to mix things up a bit more and I think the ride ended okay, was able to do a couple of teardrop shapes along the rail at a walk very lightly.

The thing that frustrates me the most and I’m not quite sure the approach to take is that it feels like he gets very stuck in the shoulders turning to the left. At a walk, we’re fine, we could turn loopy circles with just seat/legs as needed with a hint of rein every now and then, at the trot we are “okay” although he does start getting bracey and will kinda blow through left-hand turns across the arena, and then at the canter there were times it felt like he was speeding up toward the corner with complete disregard for me asking him to turn. I ended up feeling like I have to practically pull him around to avoid hitting the fence. It helped a little when I got my dressage whip and kind of imagined it had a flag and was using that to kind of indicate I wanted him to move his /shoulders/ over.

Any thoughts or ideas as to what I’m doing wrong or could do better? The turns left have been an issue for a long time

[Pocket_Pony]

Does he feel like he’s leaning on that inside shoulder? If so, it isn’t about the shoulder, it is about the haunches. He’s carrying his inside hind too much to the inside and sort of blocking his body from being able to bend. He needs to be stepping more under his midline with the inside hind and that will free him up in the shoulder.

I have the same problem with Mac trotting to the right. Trying to address it at the shoulder doesn’t help me - it is only when I get him to use that hind end correctly that it doesn’t feel like I’m riding a motorcycle that wants to lean in.

[froglander]

He feels like he’s blowing through his outside shoulder. It’s like, if I just do random, loopy circles around, he’s agreeable with that, but if I want him to turn /now/ he blows through it. Some of those ugly turns turned into a turn on the forehand and then off we’d go to try again.

[Pocket_Pony]

Ohhh, I see. Canter was hard for Mac, too, he was very unbalanced and steering and turning I’m sure were quite a sight to see! I have found that correct work at the trot really helps the canter, so maybe take a step back from the canter for a while?

TOH and making “square turns” or counter-bent turns would be good for that. Start at the walk and just make turns everywhere you go, but make them square, not round, so that his body stays straight or a bit counter-bent through the turn. You’ll really need to keep him on that outside rein so he doesn’t blow through the shoulder, and use that outside leg as part of the aid system that turns him.

An exercise I like to do is a true-bend / counter-bend figure 8. For instance, I’ll start in a true-bend circle to the right. When I get to the middle part where the two circles meet, I keep that bend to the right, but I turn left. So my true-bend has turned into a counter-bend and I finish the second circle that way. Then do it on the other side. Of course one side will be easier than the other.

When you feel like you’ve got a good grasp of those two exercises, then move up to the trot and see what you’ve got. If it all falls apart, go back to the walk. Try the trot again. Just play around with it. Forget canter for a while - he needs to learn how to be straight and turn from the outside aids first.

[froglander]

Could you explain the contact you might use in this case? I’m still trying to find a good balance of that.

[Pocket_Pony]

Well this is an instance where my dressage training comes into play and I keep a steady contact to keep him straight through the shoulder. Pair that with the outside leg aid (a bit forward or at least not behind the cinch) to keep him from popping the shoulder out. You’re building a link between the leg and the hand and their ability to move the body parts around.

As far as contact . . . I think that it is good to have a goal to build toward, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do (meet the horse where he is) to make the aid understandable so that you can then move forward and toward a lighter aid. Like instead of nagging with the leg and dulling the horse, a strong one-time thwap gets the message across more clearly and quickly.

[froglander]

Okay, thanks Pocket Pony

[froglander]

I had a dressage lesson last night. It started out awful, as Cody felt tense, choppy and distracted, as he had the last couple days, once I picked up a trot. At a walk we were turning with mostly no reins, and just looping all around the arena. But once we start trotting it’s like I lose all of that. Through the course of the lesson we got him put back together, a little more contact, inviting him to stretch into the contact, and when he wouldn’t turn, we’d use the inside rein to ask him to follow his nose, and if he didn’t she had me either use my inside leg or tap him on the hip with the dressage whip to get him to step his hind over so then the shoulders kind of had to settle into the line between nose and hindquarters.

The mentally frustrating part for me is that it /worked/ and with keeping that contact with the bit (not heavy contact, just as much as it needed to be at that moment), and getting him to get his hip to follow his nose so his shoulder had to also, he relaxed into the ride. We ended with some of the best bending at a left lead canter as we’ve probably ever had.

So I’m torn. Can I still work towards that lightness of working on a “feel” while still having contact with the bit? I feel like I’m not seeing/understanding something important

I /would/ like to take him to a dressage show someday, partly because with a past horse I found it fun, and partly because I’d like to show what a mustang can do. I’d prefer the route of “classical” vs “modern/show” dressage, but I also like to just play and have fun (although I don’t often get bored in the arena anyway) and go on trail rides and play with obstacles and stuff like that.

[aktill]

Yes you can, but you need to ride the hindquarters rather than the neck. If he needs to be turned with the rein, you’ve got a bit of a short circuit somewhere. Likewise, you never get to self carriage if you need to hold the horse in some position.

Reins aren’t for turning, they’re for setting bend. How else would you perform a counterbend? Likewise, how can you ask for any figure that relies on a bent horse moving in anything other than a circle?

Lightness and feel is possible with a dressage horse. Contact is not a question of pressure. By some schools of thought, the only difference (in a finished horse) between a horse on draped reins and one with straight reins is the effot involved in picking up the slack (ie…the horse doesn’t need some arbitrary “3 oz of pressure” or something to be on contact).

[froglander]

Any ideas where that short circuit might be?

At a walk, we can turn by me putting my inside leg back, sometimes adding a little pressure, and he’ll turn with no reins. That’s usually how I’ll start the ride out.

Problem comes in when I go any faster than a walk or maybe a jog.

[aktill]

I’ll answer with a couple of questions:

1. Do you have as much respect for your leg aids as your rein aids?
2. If you drop your leg back and he doesn’t turn, what do you do?

[froglander]

[QUOTE=aktill;7473852]
I’ll answer with a couple of questions: [/QUOTE]

1. Do you have as much respect for your leg aids as your rein aids?

Since he doesn’t respond as well at a trot as he does at a walk, I’m going to say no

2. If you drop your leg back and he doesn’t turn, what do you do?

Usually when he turns (at a walk) from my leg, he will bend his head/neck in the direction we are turning even if I don’t touch the reins. So if he doesn’t turn from my leg, I will usually pick up the rein as a bit of a reminder “yoo-hoo, I asked you to turn”. Sometimes I will turn it into a turn on the forehand. Kind of thinking that maybe it would be more beneficial to tap his inside hip with my whip as a reminder to step his hip over to turn, rather than picking up the rein?