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"Turning Loose"

Western
#41

>Since he doesn’t respond as well at a trot as he does at a walk, I’m going to say no

That’s more of a question of how he’s understanding your requests, rather than how you’re thinking of them. That said, one point my dressage coach hammers home is that our aids mean exactly the same thing in one gait as in another. I know for myself, it’s amazing what I’m willing to put up with in hand gallop compared to walk, for example, when they should really be no different.

What I really was getting at is answered below:

>2) If you drop your leg back and he doesn’t turn, what do you do?
>Usually when he turns (at a walk) from my leg, he will bend his head/neck in the direction we are turning even if I don’t touch the reins. So if he doesn’t turn >from my leg, I will usually pick up the rein as a bit of a reminder “yoo-hoo, I asked you to turn”.

So what you’re REALLY saying is that you give up on your leg aid and go to something else. Your original question (essentially) was “how do I get to a draped or loose rein” (not on contact). The short answer is, get your horse responding to everything other than the rein.

What you’ve been teaching your horse is that, should he not want to respond to your leg and body, he can just wait you out. When you get to the hand, he should probably perk up.

The fix is that, if he ignores your leg, do what’s required to get the point across. If you have to roll your spur across his ribs at first, do so, and know that you’re probably having to get a bit bigger than you might once have because you’ve dulled him to your aids. But heck, when you know better, you do better, so no biggie.

AT BEST you can keep your aid on and apply rein, but even then, you’re still saying you value your rein aid more than your leg (ie, feel free to ignore your leg until the rein comes into play). That’s not the way you end up on draped reins.

>Sometimes I will turn it into a turn on the forehand.

Why? Don’t give up on one request because another will be easier to finish. If you ask a question, see it through. If the original request was for turn, don’t end up in TOF. That’s how you end up meandering around aimlessly (been there).

The only exception to this is if your horse is losing it - you can’t go through trouble and end up in a good place. If you’ve overfaced him, quit and start something else, but otherwise SEE IT THROUGH. Otherwise he thinks he’s right to quit because you’ve rewarded him for doing so.

>Kind of >thinking that maybe it would be more beneficial to tap his inside hip with my whip as a reminder to step his hip over to turn, rather than picking up >the rein?

That’s still not your leg.

The goal is not “turn”. The goal is “please do what I’m asking you to do”.

#42

But wouldn’t the whip be reinforcing the leg aid? (not trying to be contrary, is an honest question)

Is it unfair of me to want him to be able to go both on a loose/draped rein as well as on “contact”?

What if, at a trot, I can get him to turn from my leg, but it’s really ugly, his head is up and his neck feels scrunched into his withers instead of lifted at the base of the neck? Can the rein be used to ask for that?

#43

>But wouldn’t the whip be reinforcing the leg aid? (not trying to be contrary, is an honest question)

All good, questions are good. Do you stop using your leg if you use the whip? If so, the leg is merely a pre-cue to the whip.

If you can’t get enough done with your leg to get him to try then yes, you need to do something else. That “something else” needs to be something that he doesn’t want to have happen though, or he’ll simply wait until you get to the second aid.

Every time you STOP using an aid, it says to him that “whatever you were doing when I stopped, keep doing that.” If that was ignoring you, you’ve rewarded him for ignoring you. Buck drills this home on one 7 Clinic DVD, I’ve seen others do similar things.

>Is it unfair of me to want him to be able to go both on a loose/draped rein as well as on “contact”?

No, why? Only if you demand that “contact” be something other than the weight in the reins. When a lot of riders speak of contact, they really mean pressure in the reins. Pressure can only be there if the horse is leaning on the rein. Do you want your horse leaning on the rein?

>What if, at a trot, I can get him to turn from my leg, but it’s really ugly, his head is up and his neck feels scrunched into his withers instead of lifted at the >base of the neck? Can the rein be used to ask for that?

What’s your goal? If your goal is to get him to turn in balance, all that’s needed from the hindquarters is to step slightly under the body shadow. How far that occurs dictates how the horse will turn.

However, whether he drops onto a shoulder is not a leg question, it’s a shoulder question. You should be able to get him to turn in counterbend by inflating your inside shoulder…ergo what you do, he does. If he’s dropping onto a shoulder, it’s not a leg question, it’s a shoulder question.

#44

Can contact be just enough to keep the reins straight in a dressage-ish way?

I’m not quite sure I understand how you would counterbend on a turn with no reins?

What does “inflate your shoulder” mean?

#45

I’m not sure if this is what aktill means, but I’ll address the shoulder as I’ve had problems with it as it relates to my anatomy and Mac’s anatomy.

When I first got Mac, he basically couldn’t turn right without leaning into that shoulder and I felt like I was riding a motorcycle. One thing I think I’ve developed over the years is body awareness (especially being into yoga and teaching yoga) - that doesn’t mean I can always get my body to do what I want it to do, but I am aware of what is going on. So I realized that when going right and Mac was dumping on that inside shoulder, my inside shoulder was forward and my body was sort of twisted so that I was also leaning into the shoulder.

I had to make a conscious movement with my body to sort of lift and open that shoulder so that my body wasn’t blocking his body. Imagine a lightbulb going off over my head when I changed my body position and he changed his! It was really dramatic. Now that’s not to say that from then on out everything was peachy-keen, but it was a clear example to me of my body affecting his and I really try to work toward being aware of what I’m doing to block him. Because of my own habitual patterns and injuries, I do have to sort of over-exaggerate movements doing certain things - it is sort of training myself along with training him.

In a counter-bend, you are using the reins to indicate the direction of bend, but you are not turning with the reins, if that makes sense. If you think of teaching someone who has never ridden before, you’d probably tell them that the horse’s body follows his head and your hands control his head, so if you want to turn in a circle to the right, you open your right rein and the horse follows. But if you want to turn to the right and have a counter-bend to the left, then you’re not going to use your reins the same way, and you’re actually asking him to turn off of your outside leg. You may have a slight opening of the inside rein to give him an opening and indicate direction, but it isn’t the same degree of opening as you would use in steering a very green horse or instructing a novice rider.

#46

Okay, not sure if I’ve understood things correctly or not, but last night I rode with the idea that legs are for turning and reins were for bending. There were some ugly turns once we started trotting, but I stuck with it and it worked! Even managed a circle left at the canter, took a few rounds but he got the idea that yes, I /mean/ it when asking him to turn with my legs, just like at a walk.

Unless I am way off base I’m gonna play with this some more.

eta: (was writing the above at a stoplight from my phone)
Are there any books or videos geared toward dressage that approaches things in a less…constricting manner? I know this is the western forum, but I still want to pursue dressage to some extent and I value the approach you guys take towards things.

#47

[QUOTE=froglander;7474056]
Can contact be just enough to keep the reins straight in a dressage-ish way?[/QUOTE]

Sure, absolutely. What the reins look like to the outside world is your decision. What contact feels like between you and your horse is a private matter.

People get into trouble when they try to force a headset, rather than inducing the horse to release the poll which RESULTS in a headset. The horse’s nose should fall vertical by gravity because he’s not holding tension in his poll, not because contact is preventing him from raising his nose or because he’s afraid of his bit.

Not so much without reins (though that’s possible too), but more without altering your reins. For example, last night I was working on serpentine lines where I asked for a single flexion and then didn’t move my hands. So, for example, you’d do a series of right and left bending lines while holding a left bend. I was very careful to check that I wasn’t cheating and lying to you folks, but my reins did nothing after the initial request for bend.

The actual request for moving along a path came from my core and legs.

A first approximation of this is to be able to change from inside to outside flexion while walking a circlular path. So start a left circle in true bend, and then halfway around switch to right bend while still tracking a left circle.

Pocket did a great job of describing this. My image is to stay sitting softly, but to “breathe into my shoulder”. That’s where the inflate image comes from. If you don’t tense your shoulder or any other part of your body, eventually your horse will take this as a request to stand his own shoulder up. A counterbend can be started this way.

The little Azteca mare I’m buying got the gist of this when I rode her last week (she passed the pre-purchase…woohoo!: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzQ4WDk2MA==/z/FYsAAOxyLm9TAHpI/$_35.JPG). Most horses will listen pretty closely to your body since they have to stay in balance underneath it. If you’re carrying a kiddo on your shoulders, you’d feel and adjust for any moves they make.

Good start, but not quite. Every part of your body is connected to part of theirs. The big parts are your head and neck to theirs, your shoulders to theirs, your ribs to their barrel, and your legs to their hind legs. Try walking a circle really paying attention to what your body needs to do, and things will make connections. Don’t try to make his body do something, do it yourself and feel where you’re not in sync.

If you just kick him in the ribs while dropping your inside shoulder and bulging your ribs to the inside, that’s not fair. You need to be square and soft first before asking your horse to do the same. So many people wonder why their horses are stiff when they are, or why their hors isn’t straight when they aren’t. You’re the leader in this, too.

Just play with things for the next while, you’ll get there. Once you’re both on roughly the same page, then you can refine things.

The ones that twig my mind are Mike Schaffer’s, and Dr Deb Bennett’s translation of Baucher’s Second Method: http://www.equinestudies.org/member_join_subscribe/innerhorseman_2003_2004_salepage.html

#48

Thank you for that reply aktill!

I think I was doing something similar to what you said when I rode last night. After we’d worked on turning from legs/seat rather than reins, I did pick up some contact to ask for some bend. Then I asked for bend one way while trying to do a (messy) serpentine. He was a bit confused as he tends to turn his head on his own in the direction we are turning when no rein is used but was starting to get the idea I think.

I know I tend to get a collapse and twist going in myself when turning left especially, so I’ve really been trying to be aware of that and correct it.

To explain the timing of asking them to step their inside hind under to both myself and a friend, I’ve walked it myself, pressing on my leg both when that leg is stepping forward and groundbound so I have been trying to be more aware of that as well. I will walk some more circles and see what else I notice :slight_smile:

And omg, I can try and sit as soft, balanced, straight as possible and ask Cody to walk in a straight line across the arena and he’s constantly veering one way or the other so I try to correct it and then be still/relax when he feels centered under me again.

#49

aktill, lovely mare! Please introduce her in your own thread - she’s adorable!

#50

[QUOTE=froglander;7475124]

And omg, I can try and sit as soft, balanced, straight as possible and ask Cody to walk in a straight line across the arena and he’s constantly veering one way or the other so I try to correct it and then be still/relax when he feels centered under me again.[/QUOTE]

Glad to hear things are looking up!

I just wanted to comment on this in particular, since I can relate having one of these. It can be a legacy of the horse previously always been told how to carry himself at every moment, rather than being asked to work at least somewhat in self carriage. He’s trying to engage you in directing him, since it’s what’s most comfortable and familiar.

The more you ask him to take responsibility for himself after you give him direction (ie, “trot straight on until I ask you to change”), the less wiggly he should become.

It could also be that he’s not yet looking to anything other than the rein for guidance, so as you change your focus to guiding with your body, he’ll look there before trying to find a rein signal.

Not much to say until she comes home, but I’ll do so when there is. Seems like a fun mare - youngish, but a good mind. In the same way that vaquero horsemanship is a blend of old-world Spanish horsemanship with that which was developed in North America, as an Azteca (Andalusian x QH), so it she. Seems appropriate :slight_smile:

#51

Thanks :slight_smile:

And she is quite a cute mare, neat mix!

Right now I am trying to decide if I should just stop lessons for the time being to focus on this kind of stuff, cut back from weekly, or continue as is. I like my instructor, it’s hard to decide :frowning:

#52

I’ve never found a conflict taking dressage lessons, though realize that you may have to make some of the choices we’ve talked about in these threads.

The only thing I’d suggest is if you do decide to take lessons, don’t try to get your instructor to adapt to anything different. Either work within their program, or don’t. It really doesn’t work too well otherwise.

How you ride between lessons is your choice, of course.

#53

I’m going to have to go back and reread some of these threads as I am unclear as to what choices you are referring to.

I think maybe I will continue with what I was doing last night until the day before a lesson, and then practice things with a bit more “dressage-like contact” to be prepared for the lesson itself and see if either Cody or I become thoroughly confused :slight_smile:

#54

When I rode last night, I started off about the same, loose rein, walking around the arena, random turning just to kind of warm up. Then I picked up a trot and he kept speeding up when I would ask him to turn in this one corner. Not sure if this was the right approach to take, but it seemed to work. When he’d start to speed up when I moved my inside leg back slightly to ask him to turn, I’d just kind of turn it into a one-rein stop/360 degree turn using more leg than rein once the initial stop/turn was started. Then we’d just go right back into a trot. I had to do that a few times, but it seemed to click that just because I put my leg on asking him to turn didn’t mean he needed to speed up.

After we got a smooth lap around the arena, I set up some cones in a big circle. The visual helped me, and I would kind of ask him to turn a little at each cone to stay on the circle and then straighten out between (there were 5 cones). We did circles, we drew a star, weaved in and out some, stopped at each cone, backed from one cone to another, changed gait at a cone, etc–were kinda having fun with it. Then I asked him to canter, and did the same of asking him to kind of turn to stay on the circle at each cone. Was quite happy that we were able to stay on the circle with a loose rein at the canter :slight_smile:

After playing with the circle of cones for awhile, I took the canter out and around the arena. In the past, at a canter especially, he would speed up into that corner sometimes seeming like he was going to just run me into the fence (just in that corner). We cantered through that corner, on a loose rein, no change of pace, no fighting to turn, it felt pretty cool :slight_smile:

Again, not sure if we are doing it “right”, but it felt like a good ride :slight_smile:

#55

Yay for a good ride!!!:yes:

#56

Thanks :slight_smile:

Pocket Pony, did you build your cavaletti? How long of poles did you use? At the barn where I board there are jumps and plenty of poles to use as trot poles, but a few cavaletti would sure be handy!

#57

No, I took the easy way out and bought them. I’m not handy at all and while I’m sure it would be a piece of cake for someone who knows how, it is nowhere in my wheelhouse.

You can buy plastic blocks that can be set at different heights to make cavaletti - that way if you already have poles you just use those. http://www.doversaddlery.com/blok-training-system/p/X1-4738/?ids=2ztaenrgbb51yxqpqra3mlyq

Edited to add: I use cavaletti a lot when I ride. There are so many things you can do with them - walk poles, trot poles (they are set at different distances, of course), canter one pole or a couple, wheel of death (4 poles, one set at each point NSEW, on a 20-m circle) that you can w/t/c through, cloverleaf (how I had them set up in my most recent pictures on the hackamore thread), set of walk poles, then a big space, then a set of trot poles - walk in, trot out, reverse going the other way. So many things to do!

I find using poles actually helps me get out of my head a little bit and just ride. And the poles give the horse something else interesting to think about vs. just mindlessly doing laps around the arena or 20-m circles. It also is good for developing their abs/topline as they have to lift to get over the poles, they have to articulate the joints, they have to be steady in their pace, go straight, pay attention, etc. Lots of great things can be done with poles/cavaletti!

#58

Thanks :slight_smile: Was trying to go…frugal, so will see if there are any handy people around the barn and maybe we can put something together.

#59

It’s hard to not go to the reins first! In riding this way the last couple of nights, that has really been brought to my attention–how often I reach for the reins before using seat/legs. I think we are getting the basics of turning. Now for stopping :frowning: It’s not that I used a /ton/ of hand when stopping, but that little bit seems to be what he listened to. Well, that and my quite ‘and whoa’ where he usually starts to stop on ‘and’.

#60

I’ve been thinking about the “turning loose” and have an observation in the difference I’ve noticed between the hackamore and the snaffle. Mac has historically been resistant in the snaffle and is prone to holding a brace, mostly it seems in his jaw and poll (and he has his teeth done regularly by a dentist - I always want to rule out pain issues first). I often do ground work before I ride to see if I can get him to release, to stretch out, to get with me, to warm up in the body, etc. Still, when I first go to trot his first reaction is to brace - he quickly works out of it, but it is always there.

When I first reach for him in the snaffle, I first feel that brace, a resistance, and then a comply, then a release. I’ve only ridden him a few times in the hackamore, but . . . and this is hard to explain . . . I feel that he’s already in that release state. When I move my finger or take a feel of the rein, I can actually release it before his head turns, because he feels like he’s already there and I know he’s going to follow through. A specific example is if we’re walking down the trail and he’s looking off to the left because there’s a squirrel in the tree, or he hears something, or whatever. If I just move my hand a couple inches, or slide my hand down the rein without necessarily picking it up, or move my finger out to give a signal with the right rein, then before his head actually turns, I can feel that I can release him because I know he’s heard me and I’m releasing the beginning of the movement that he’ll follow through on, not the complete movement.

I don’t know if I’m making myself clear, but I think maybe that comes from a “turned-loose” state?

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