Turnout and attitude adjustment, but not for the better?

[IPEsq]

Can you explain more about what you do to keep going and when you decide to quit? What is he doing when you finally quit? What does he do between initial tantrum and quitting?

Some horses are more fighters. There’s a real art to finding the right time to stop for the day. My horse throws tantrums sometimes. They often come with a warning, but not always. They were the most frequent when he was rehabbing. We’d get towards the end of our exercise set, he’d be getting tired, things were getting harder, and he’d toss his head and leap and squeal and whatever. He wanted me to pull him up. Oh good, we get to stop now? It’s hard to handle this in a rehab where you are maybe at the trot for 10 minutes stage. But I’d kick him on to go through it, go back to trot…but maybe for only 2 more laps of the indoor. Then quit. If I was supposed to go for 2 more minutes? Nope, not happening today. Get a pleasant 2 laps of keeping his stuff together, then ok, fine. Push it more, and I was asking for a huge fight. Horses do not learn from the addition of pressure but from the release of pressure. So, getting tough and saying no, you WILL TROT 2 MORE MINUTES was not going to really teach him anything. Instead, say, no, you can’t do those moves to get to stop, but if you are nice and responsive and calm here for a second then, ok, I hear you, you can rest.

Usually, when he’s about to throw a tantrum because things are getting hard and he’s not sure he wants to do it anymore, post-rehab, I will get some warning. He will get kind of balled up in his body and start whining to me. Literally. This little whiny whinny grumble thing that he only does when he’s mad and wants to take his toys and go home. There’s a very short window between where he’s still trying really hard and learning and the start of the tantrum. I try to take advantage of that window then ask for him to relax and stretch. But it’s also my cue to wrap it up…don’t get greedy! Timer has run out! There’s really only so much good telling him to suck it up will do for us.

In other words, there’s a point in which just “making him work more” makes him say, “oh yeah? bring it!” But at the same time you don’t want to give into the bad behavior. It’s really an art to training ones like this. Variety in the type of work you do, even in the arena, can help keep him interested and less likely to hit your buttons. The real art is convincing the horse that he wants to do this sport stuff too. That’s not always easy!

I’ve also found that working the horse on the ground and intentionally getting him too up, then asking him to bring himself back down, rinse and repeat, gives him better control over himself. But some of them like to test you, especially if they are bored or would just rather be doing something else. I think there really is something to his added turnout that has made him think working in an arena is not as much fun as when he was more cooped up. But that’s what you’ve both got to learn to deal with.

[S1969]

@runNjump86

I’m shocked that someone said “Already getting injections at 12”. Well, he’s an event horse, not a pasture puff?? Some horses can go longer without injections, some can’t. Just like some people can get by without taking an Aleeve every day, but I am not one of them. :lol: We have him on a very careful maintenance schedule (yes, at 12) that has taken a few years to figure out. This is why he gets adjusted regularly, I have the multi-dose vial of Adequan, and will most likely have hocks done in November. I know how he feels when something is off with him, and he has a very consistent history. He does not feel that way right now.

Not sure why you’re shocked. You are treating him already for aches and pain and/or preventing aches and pains, but you’re sure this is not one of them. I’m simply saying that I would not assume there is nothing going on, just because the ,vet workup didn’t pinpoint something specific (yet.)

All horses/riders are one sided, but if you see a pronounced one-sided “weakness” in a fit horse, I would not assume it’s nothing.

I have a smart mare; she is happy to use excuses to get out of work. One way I know it’s an excuse is that she never does it for the trainer. LOL. So, in addition to video, try to get your trainer riding on video as well, and see if there is a difference.

[runNjump86]

@IPEsq

Can you explain more about what you do to keep going and when you decide to quit? What is he doing when you finally quit? What does he do between initial tantrum and quitting?

Some horses are more fighters. There’s a real art to finding the right time to stop for the day. My horse throws tantrums sometimes. They often come with a warning, but not always. They were the most frequent when he was rehabbing. We’d get towards the end of our exercise set, he’d be getting tired, things were getting harder, and he’d toss his head and leap and squeal and whatever. He wanted me to pull him up. Oh good, we get to stop now? It’s hard to handle this in a rehab where you are maybe at the trot for 10 minutes stage. But I’d kick him on to go through it, go back to trot…but maybe for only 2 more laps of the indoor. Then quit. If I was supposed to go for 2 more minutes? Nope, not happening today. Get a pleasant 2 laps of keeping his stuff together, then ok, fine. Push it more, and I was asking for a huge fight. Horses do not learn from the addition of pressure but from the release of pressure. So, getting tough and saying no, you WILL TROT 2 MORE MINUTES was not going to really teach him anything. Instead, say, no, you can’t do those moves to get to stop, but if you are nice and responsive and calm here for a second then, ok, I hear you, you can rest.

Usually, when he’s about to throw a tantrum because things are getting hard and he’s not sure he wants to do it anymore, post-rehab, I will get some warning. He will get kind of balled up in his body and start whining to me. Literally. This little whiny whinny grumble thing that he only does when he’s mad and wants to take his toys and go home. There’s a very short window between where he’s still trying really hard and learning and the start of the tantrum. I try to take advantage of that window then ask for him to relax and stretch. But it’s also my cue to wrap it up…don’t get greedy! Timer has run out! There’s really only so much good telling him to suck it up will do for us.

In other words, there’s a point in which just “making him work more” makes him say, “oh yeah? bring it!” But at the same time you don’t want to give into the bad behavior. It’s really an art to training ones like this. Variety in the type of work you do, even in the arena, can help keep him interested and less likely to hit your buttons. The real art is convincing the horse that he wants to do this sport stuff too. That’s not always easy!

I’ve also found that working the horse on the ground and intentionally getting him too up, then asking him to bring himself back down, rinse and repeat, gives him better control over himself. But some of them like to test you, especially if they are bored or would just rather be doing something else. I think there really is something to his added turnout that has made him think working in an arena is not as much fun as when he was more cooped up. But that’s what you’ve both got to learn to deal with.

This was super helpful. He is definitely more of a “fighter”, as am I, which means we can feed off each other. This is something I have had to work on, personally, for a long time. I’ve made progress but I’m not perfect. I think you are 100% spot on about my timing and knowing when to quit. I’m stubborn and have the “you will NOT get away with this crap!” running through my brain. Reading your post and thinking about it even more has made me aware of that. Like I said, sometimes you don’t always see things until they’re words in front of you. I have made some serious mistakes in the past; as a rider, horsewoman, human, everything. I found one of my old posts that truly ashamed me. Thankfully I’ve gotten better, but ironically I’m having the same issue with the same horse, except the general consensus was “he needs more turnout!” Well, here we are, with significantly more turnout, and he’s acting a fool again in the exact same way.

He does have signs. Like your horse, he will toss his head and charge forward, or sometimes do a half-ass strike. I am wondering if you have a camera somewhere, because when we had a meltdown on Monday I absolutely felt like his attitude was “Oh yeah? Bring it!” One of the assistants was giving a lesson at the same time and even mentioned how rotten he had behaved for apparently no reason. But his stubborn streak combined with my stubborn streak turned a mild “I don’t wanna” moment into full-fledged temper tantrum. However, there have been times where he just starts that way. Not often, but it has happened. I absolutely agree with needing variety in the ring. Boarding at a Western facility has its drawbacks, such as not being able to leave jumps or cavaletti up. I have apparently become complacent and too focused on flatwork. I ground drive or lunge in the Pessoa once a week and on days where I can tell he is ‘up’ before I even get on I will lunge first.

ETA - I try to ride through the tantrums and get some semblance of obedience. I don’t expect perfection, I just expect to be listened to. Clearly that has not worked. :lol: There have been times where I got off and lunged, keeping him properly bent on a circle, until he let’s himself down, if that makes sense. When he relaxes, either under saddle or on the lunge, we end it right there. I hop off immediately, give lots of pats and praise, and walk him to cool him out.

Random: Does flatwork = dressage to everyone? If not, what is the difference?

We are going to change him to a smaller turnout by himself next week to see if there is a difference. I’m lucky in the fact they will customize turnout. I’m going to ask for a week of individual turnout. If no change, half day turnout. I’m even thinking of asking if we can move his stall, but the barn is pretty full so I don’t think that’s an option.

[IPEsq]

Oh, I totally get it! There are days when even leading in from the paddock I can tell he’s already cranky. I tend to ride in our indoor for various reasons, and I can’t leave poles and cavaletti set up either, but I make time to use them because he really finds that interesting. It’s been um…interesting…having a horse with this personality. And to top it off, he’s had plenty of health issues which haven’t helped any of it.

[Palm_Beach]

@runNjump86

Well his reward is to keep working until he stops, either by riding him through it or lunging if I start to lose my temper. That’s one hell of a reward!

I don’t think he makes the connection between his behavior and what you are doing to get him to stop. Horses respond to pressure, so whatever you were doing before he started acting up is what he is trying to make go away, and in his mind, he is getting what he wants because he is repeating the behavior. Lunging solves nothing - horses absolutely do NOT conclude, “I bucked and then I had to circle around for 10 minutes so I think I won’t buck again.” More likely the horse felt rewarded because you got off.

And fighting with a horse is simply useless. You need to outthink them. He is stronger than you, and you are supposed to be smarter than him. Start using your head and you’ll make progress.

[Posting_Trot]

I think you’re responding to the horse as though he actually is having a temper tantrum. But horses don’t really have temper tantrums. That is more of an analogy to human behavior than anything else. In other words, he’s probably not acting that way specifically to annoy you or tick you off. But you’re responding as though that is his intention.

If he is not in pain, then he may simply be confused about what you’re asking him to do. Either your cues are not clear, or else he hasn’t yet learned them. Go back three steps in his training, and begin with questions that you know he knows how to answer, for real, every single time. If that means just walking around the arena and doing figure-eights, then that’s what you should do. Then gradually add in the more difficult stuff (over a period of several weeks) and teach it to him as though he’d never learned it before.

[Princess_Sparkles]

[QUOTE=beowulf;n9856680]
I’ve committed quite a few horses to the full-turnout life and while initially the more stallbound horses view it as cruel exile, every single one of them has come around to it and been happier, better adjusted, and more relaxed with more turnout. I have never had a single horse get worse only undersaddle because of increased turnout time. QUOTE]

I love turnout and believe in it hardcore. But my mare’s attitude changed when I tried to change her to 24/7 turnout. She hated it. She didn’t sleep. She became a complete raging b****. When she was brought in for her grain she would gobble it down and then keel over in the shavings and fall asleep because she was so exhausted.

I gave in and let her sleep in a stall. She is a teenage horse, she is mine, and I’m not going to make her miserable to prove a point. She would probably benefit from moving around more as she ages, but I try to get her out for 10-12 hours a day which is really generous turnout for a stall boarded horse. (It’s my barn so I know she is getting this much.)

I know my princess is likely a unique case, but this was my experience, so there is a slight off chance that OP’s horse is just tired? My horse didn’t feel comfortable sleeping outside, so maybe OP’s horse doesn’t either.

[Stitch_In_Time]

@Palm Beach

I don’t think he makes the connection between his behavior and what you are doing to get him to stop. Horses respond to pressure, so whatever you were doing before he started acting up is what he is trying to make go away, and in his mind, he is getting what he wants because he is repeating the behavior. Lunging solves nothing - horses absolutely do NOT conclude, “I bucked and then I had to circle around for 10 minutes so I think I won’t buck again.” More likely the horse felt rewarded because you got off.

And fighting with a horse is simply useless. You need to outthink them. He is stronger than you, and you are supposed to be smarter than him. Start using your head and you’ll make progress.

^This is what I had to learn with my horse.

For example: Is the horse protesting because you put you right leg on? You don’t need to get mad, or pick a fight, or do anything really other than keep your right leg on until the horse relaxes, then immediately remove it!

In my case my horse does not act up, or throw temper tantrums, but she is young and green and she had learned that I would take my leg off if she protested something I was asking (mainly by getting tense or throwing her head up). I ended up sending her to a trainer for a couple months because our progress had stalled, its like riding a different horse now.

So if your horse throws a temper tantrum don’t fight with him, in fact don’t change anything, keep asking the thing you were asking for until he does it and then let him off the hook. Simple concept, much harder in practice (ask me how I know)!

[luvmyhackney]

@Posting Trot

I think you’re responding to the horse as though he actually is having a temper tantrum. But horses don’t really have temper tantrums. That is more of an analogy to human behavior than anything else. In other words, he’s probably not acting that way specifically to annoy you or tick you off. But you’re responding as though that is his intention.

If he is not in pain, then he may simply be confused about what you’re asking him to do. Either your cues are not clear, or else he hasn’t yet learned them. Go back three steps in his training, and begin with questions that you know he knows how to answer, for real, every single time. If that means just walking around the arena and doing figure-eights, then that’s what you should do. Then gradually add in the more difficult stuff (over a period of several weeks) and teach it to him as though he’d never learned it before.

Said much better than I could. Horses aren’t bad just for the sake of being a jerk. They always have a reason, either crap training or pain/irritation.

[IPEsq]

Horse temper tantrums are like toddler tantrums. They don’t try to tick you off. It’s they who are ticked off–usually because you are persisting in asking them to do something they don’t really want to do at that point in time. Not all of them do it. Same with toddlers.

[luvmyhackney]

@IPEsq

Horse temper tantrums are like toddler tantrums. They don’t try to tick you off. It’s they who are ticked off–usually because you are persisting in asking them to do something they don’t really want to do at that point in time. Not all of them do it. Same with toddlers.

Toddlers and horse both give warning signs before they explode, parents and trainers just aren’t paying attention.

[Scribbler]

As far as spooking at a power washer that has been running for 15 minutes, I think people often mistake obediently going past a stimulus with actually being OK with it.

I think that often a horse will tolerate a stimulus but still be worried about it and after a certain amount of time they crack under pressure and start spooking. It isn’t a resistance to the work so much as they just can’t stand it any longer.

I see the same thing with horses getting on trailers. You can muscle s nervous but obedient horse on to a trailer and then next time they are even more scared.

When we do Western style ground work the whole idea isn’t that you get the horse to prance over a tarp but that you work very slowly until they walk across it completely unconcerned. “Training for courage” is what our local groundwork clinician calls it.

As far as cutting up one direction under saddle, horse may be overusing his good lead in turnout and feel even more unbalanced on his weak.side. or he may have pulled a muscle at play that only comes up in this activity. How is he on the longe or at liberty in this direction?

Also a smart horse will get fussy if he expects pain so a passing minor twinge for a few weeks can make him self protective long after.

Instead of thinking why is he disobeying me? Think what is he trying to protect about himself?

[IPEsq]

@luvmyhackney

Toddlers and horse both give warning signs before they explode, parents and trainers just aren’t paying attention.

That’s correct. I was just commenting in response to the suggestion that “temper tantrum” is anthropomorphic and intended to make us human adults angry. I don’t think that’s the case.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Stitch In Time

^This is what I had to learn with my horse.

For example: Is the horse protesting because you put you right leg on? You don’t need to get mad, or pick a fight, or do anything really other than keep your right leg on until the horse relaxes, then immediately remove it!

In my case my horse does not act up, or throw temper tantrums, but she is young and green and she had learned that I would take my leg off if she protested something I was asking (mainly by getting tense or throwing her head up). I ended up sending her to a trainer for a couple months because our progress had stalled, its like riding a different horse now.

So if your horse throws a temper tantrum don’t fight with him, in fact don’t change anything, keep asking the thing you were asking for until he does it and then let him off the hook. Simple concept, much harder in practice (ask me how I know)!

This is very true for me as well.

I have a green horse who was out of work for a few weeks and then getting to know me as his new rider. I’d put my leg on and he’d toss his head, he would stop, he would back up, he’d go sideways, any evasion of forward. I had a trainer and a friend ride him so we could reach a collective conclusion. With the most confident rider (trainer) he barely did it at all. When I got after him and just kept asking he got over it. He does not balk at my leg. He’d back up, toss his head, threaten other non forward maneuvers but I just sat there, calmly, with my leg still on. When he moved forward the pressure came off and he was rewarded. I also got my crap together and starting paying attention so I could see signs of it happening before it did. Now it’s not an issue. Go means go. I was in the unfortunate habit of taking my leg off immediately when he’s act up, which was a HUGE mistake.

So I too, would not recommend getting off and lunging unless you feel you are in absolute danger and must longe. I would then get back on after, ask whatever you were asking before, he does it, reward.

I don’t doubt that my smart young horse was testing to see how much he really has to do, I also don’t doubt that it was hard work for him and maybe was muscle sore some of the time. So I was mindful and mixed up our routine and didn’t drill every day.

I also believe pain plays a major role, but so does the riding relationship.

[IPEsq]

I actually had to deal with some of this this morning. My horse has been a little extra worried about the door to the indoor arena lately after some horses got loose and ran over there while we were riding last weekend. He had yesterday off but seemed totally back to being ok with the door the previous day. After we’ve been walking around a bit, over comes one of the guys with the mower and then the weed whacker to tackle the landscaping right outside that door. So, the plan for the ride became, let’s work on dealing with stuff outside this door!

The horse was totally fine to walk around, and I could let him out on a long rein from time to time. He stopped to watch the worker some and got tense. But ask for trot? Nope, mentally not with me enough. After the mowing stopped, I tried again for some trot, but now horse was just wanting to go to the door to check out the sights outside. He started getting pissy when I asked him to go away from the door–turned into being gate sour. This eventually resulted in a front leg flinging, head tossing mini tantrum. He was too distracted and not interested in going to work. He was already mentally exhausted. Then there were some other really loud noises happening periodically, which made me jump, so then I got all grabby on the reins. Not helping! I wound up working him in hand to get his head back with me and the snark out of his eye. Once he was fine jogging with me some instead of trying to bite at me, that’s where we stopped today. Tomorrow is another day.

[Scribbler]

@IPEsq

I actually had to deal with some of this this morning. My horse has been a little extra worried about the door to the indoor arena lately after some horses got loose and ran over there while we were riding last weekend. He had yesterday off but seemed totally back to being ok with the door the previous day. After we’ve been walking around a bit, over comes one of the guys with the mower and then the weed whacker to tackle the landscaping right outside that door. So, the plan for the ride became, let’s work on dealing with stuff outside this door!

The horse was totally fine to walk around, and I could let him out on a long rein from time to time. He stopped to watch the worker some and got tense. But ask for trot? Nope, mentally not with me enough. After the mowing stopped, I tried again for some trot, but now horse was just wanting to go to the door to check out the sights outside. He started getting pissy when I asked him to go away from the door–turned into being gate sour. This eventually resulted in a front leg flinging, head tossing mini tantrum. He was too distracted and not interested in going to work. He was already mentally exhausted. Then there were some other really loud noises happening periodically, which made me jump, so then I got all grabby on the reins. Not helping! I wound up working him in hand to get his head back with me and the snark out of his eye. Once he was fine jogging with me some instead of trying to bite at me, that’s where we stopped today. Tomorrow is another day.

That sounds like a productive session all in all. Much better than “I rode him through it and then got bucked off and had to go to ER,” which I see happen often enough.

[IPEsq]

@Scribbler

That sounds like a productive session all in all. Much better than “I rode him through it and then got bucked off and had to go to ER,” which I see happen often enough.

Yes, and I would not have always made the decision I made today. On the one hand, there’s the “don’t let him get away with that” voice, but on the other hand, there’s the “how can I turn this into a winning day today?” voice. I’m trying to listen to the 2nd one more.

[runNjump86]

@IPEsq

Yes, and I would not have always made the decision I made today. On the one hand, there’s the “don’t let him get away with that” voice, but on the other hand, there’s the “how can I turn this into a winning day today?” voice. I’m trying to listen to the 2nd one more.

Exactly.

And the responses to “don’t get off and lunge”. I get that, but also please read WHY I get off and lunge. It’s because I start to get angry, and I know that is absolutely going to make things 1000 times worse. I’m not lunging him because he’s bucking. He doesn’t buck during tantrums, he will throw his head and leap out, sometimes taking off for a few strides before the marbles settle again. I will lunge him so that he still has to work and has to bend and use himself properly, which is why we have the tantrum in the first place.

I’ve been given a lot of helpful advise. Thank you all.

[IPEsq]

@runNjump86 have you ever gotten off and briefly worked in hand (while you take some deep breaths) and then gotten back on and asked for something simple to end the day ridden? There have been some days when I was trying to figure out why my horse had issues under saddle and not in hand (turns out it was his SI), and the vets wanted me to work him, and I would get on and off maybe several times, even if I got off to just trot him over to the mounting block to get back on and ask him to just trot away from the mounting block to the other end.

[runNjump86]

@IPEsq

@runNjump86 have you ever gotten off and briefly worked in hand (while you take some deep breaths) and then gotten back on and asked for something simple to end the day ridden? There have been some days when I was trying to figure out why my horse had issues under saddle and not in hand (turns out it was his SI), and the vets wanted me to work him, and I would get on and off maybe several times, even if I got off to just trot him over to the mounting block to get back on and ask him to just trot away from the mounting block to the other end.

Yes. Not often, but yes. Sometimes I’ve had to get off and lunge him briefly in side reins or the neck stretcher to remind him he’s not a camel, and after he’s usually better.