Turnout skirmishes - would you separate?

When I bought mare #2 I put my 2 mares and pony out together after an introductory period. They had 15 acres. Boy that didn’t work. Big mare ran constantly taking smaller mare with foot issues with her. Smaller mare needed to be in a smaller pasture anyway so I separated them. Well they cried and cried.

Eventually they got over it. Since they are both alpha’s I avoided horses being kicked. They LUV each other - as long as there is a fence between them. Smaller one got into the pasture with big one once and I thought they would kick each other to death.

And I got a bonus out of it - it helped with them being herd bound. Now big mare doesn’t give a flip if she can’t see the other mare and the other mare is back bonded with her pony ( which the big mare hates). I really don’t need avoidable vet bills.

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Absolutely separate them. My friend’s gelding chipped the point of his hip due to turnout skirmishes. It’s questionable whether he will ever return to soundness. Very sad because he was a lovely riding horse and I regret not buying him 10 years ago… Someone talked me out of it by saying he was too old… He’s 25 now.

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I realize we may not be able to prove this theory, but I would bet money that this is less of an issue over wanting what one doesn’t have and much more about needing a larger territory when resources are involved.

Horse require varying amounts of space to feel secure: some can coexist in the same stall, eating from the same hay pile, others need multiple acres. I’ve seen a group of horses that coexisted peacefully for years in a 5 acre field descend into chaos when confined to a single acre lot. Same amount of food access, plenty of fresh water, but a lot less space. It makes all the difference to some horses. Sounds like your older guy is one of them, and its unlikely to change. I’d separate them.

Someone up thread mentioned it, but the Hay Hut has been a godsend for hay squabbles in our herd of five, that always has a revolving foster or two coming through and going with an occasional rank insecure leader. We used to have a standard roundbale feeder (uncovered) and it was like watching a ceaseless merry-go-round as the horses marched around; the boss would chase the next lowest on the rung, who would then chase the next, and so on, so forth. The Hay Hut completely cut that behavior down.

When to separate is up to the risk tolerance of the owner, the set up/management of the facility, and whether or not the horses truly jive. Sometimes they don’t.

It’s my experience too many people are quick to pull horses from situations before they work things out themselves, which just makes for poorly socialized, ill-mannered horses who spend their whole lives in isolation because no one ever did them the kindness of learning how to interact with other horses. In most cases, a horse that gets kicked put himself in that position – kicking is a close range attack and just about any sound and able-bodied horse should be able to see the signs and move. For many horses it is a last ditch message to “GTFO” - unless the horse isn’t properly socialized.

On the other hand… people pay so much money to keep a horse, and a hurt horse who can’t be ridden doesn’t have much of a future in most parts of the world, so I can certainly understand the intolerance of risk there for many people, who don’t want to see a horse hurt in their care.

Squabbling over hay is usually a management complication. Horses compete for food, or they compete for mares. Occasionally, they compete for space or shelter too – so the smart thing to do is never put resources in an area where they need to compete for them. Put your hay far enough away from other horses, fence lines, or obstacles. The general rule of thumb is to have least +2 additional piles for any horse number over 1 and to space each pile 40ft+ away. Make sure your paddock is truly big enough to house two horses - and if you are regularly dropping hay, drop the hay on opposite ends of the paddock.

This is just my observation having owned quite a few A-hole, insecure leaders – often, I don’t think they are more interested in the other guy’s hay. I think instead, they feel obligated to make the other guy’s feet move – usually because the horse is too close to them for comfort. But the other horse is “that close” because that’s where the hay pile is. So what they do is tell the horse, “this is my spot and my space” – they chase the horse away. The horse keeps returning, understandably, because of the hay pile which is still within Boss Horse’s space bubble. So it’s very important to put these piles of hay very far away from one another so the other horse’s presence can in no way be misinterpreted as a threat to their resources.

If this is the only time they are bickering, consider leaving hay out for them 24/7 versus at scheduled points in time. If they are kept at home this is very manageable, either by a slow feeder or hut of some sort. Horses who only see a few flakes a feeding are way more excited about the hay than the horse that has round-the-clock access to hay.

The other thing you can do, is sprinkle high value grain, fenugreek, or treats over the Boss guy’s hay flake. That will keep them glued for a while.

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My two only go out together when the grass is good enough to negate the need to feed one extra hay (the other is a fat pony). Not because there are arguments, but because the fat pony manages to sweet talk the other into sharing her hay, (and fat pony eats twice as fast of course) meaning the one who actually needs the extra food doesn’t really get it.

The rest of the time they live in separate paddocks, usually adjacent but occasionally not (always within sight). They’re fine either way, the fat pony cares little for socialisation and the younger one has learned to cope “by herself”. Pony lived by herself for 10 years quite happily.

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Do they have shoes behind? If not, I would go with more piles and further apart, but keep them together. I really believe in herd turn out. Sometimes we have to put piles for the meek far apart from the popular horses. We have never had pasture injuries but we don’t allow hind shoes. The pecking order changes from time to time but they always work it out

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I’d separate them, I think, if you’ve already given the multiple-pile gambit the ol’ college try.

I’m currently in a similar boat myself, and I’ve come to the conclusion that my old gelding and my new mare just don’t like each other - and probably never will. Of course I’d like them to be together, and I’m kind of disappointed that they’re not big pals, but I’m not going to force it. The mare is happy with the pony, and Mr GetOffMyLawn is perfectly cheery alone.

I sometimes think we romanticize the idea of The Herd, when, in reality, horses are just as idiosyncratic, and often just as curmudgeonly, as people can be.

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This is really interesting to me because my a-hole TB definitely strikes me as an insecure leader. What do you think makes a horse that way and have you ever seen one change? My retiree was always the leader before and he was a perfect one–very secure, got along with everyone, kept everybody in line, but never landed a bite or kick. I feel guilty that he’s been supplanted by the TB instead of continuing to enjoy his benevolent dictator status in his golden years.

Thanks to everyone for weighing in. There are lots of good points here and several comments that made me think about my management and how to change it.

The last few days I have kept them separated 24/7 and nobody looks stressed, but they do spend a lot of time standing next to each other along the fence line. This is causing them to spend most of their days standing around and they are not moving nearly as much as usual. Also, they usually have a daily play session and, of course, that has been cancelled.

The problems they have had have been problems around hay with resource guarding. So here is what I am going to try next;

I will keep them separate at night. This is easy to do and ensures that both horses get to eat their meals and hay in peace with no chance of conflict. Also, I wonder if the 24/7 looking over his shoulder thing is keeping my younger gelding a bit irritated.

Before I turn out in the morning I will make sure the #2 gelding has some hay with his breakfast. He only gets a ration balancer and he generally finishes his hay overnight, so I think when he goes out in the pasture he is more hungry than #1, who often doesn’t finish his hay and has a large meal of hay pellets and balancer.

I am also going to open all of my pastures, instead of rotating, and will spread multiple piles of hay around and make sure they are very far apart - much farther than I have been doing.

I’ll let y’all know how it works out. Thanks so much for all of the great ideas.

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I’ll be curious to hear how it goes. In my herd, the boss mare inspects all the hay piles until she decides they are all the same and then eats. So, no matter how far apart they are, she pushes the other horses off them one by one until she is ready to eat.

In our case, it’s a benign situation, she pushes, they move…everyone eats. In your case I do wonder if there is the beginning of a change of herd dominance, and the lower ranking guy is reluctant to move off of the hay on principal. So if that’s the case, it may not matter how many piles of hay you put out. But, that said, a change in dominance might just happen without a skirmish, and you might find that the roles eventually reverse.

Would be fun to have a pasture-cam on to watch them and see what happens. Let us know!

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I can never find it when I want to, but there is a video I saw on facebook of two mares just going to WAR. One was a chestnut 2 year old, the other a very light palomino. The guy is just videoing while these two go butt-to-butt landing kick after kick for probably 3 or 4 minutes straight, neither of them backing down even after multiple blows landed by each. His only comment was “you girls just have to work it out.”

I’d break that up. Maybe I’m a sissy, but I’m not willing to risk an injury because I bought two alpha mares with high pain tolerances. Does anyone know what video I’m talking about?

Hopefully OP’s horses work it out. I 100% agree that being in groups is better for them mentally. I also 100% agree that they need to be able to do “whatever”. I change my horse’s turnout situations constantly. Sometimes solo in a small pen, sometimes with one other horse in a bigger pen, sometimes with 4 horses in the pasture. They are far less herd bound this way as they don’t have “A” friend that they “need” to go out with.

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I don’t think being in a herd in a smaller space than in the wild where they can go off permanently if they don’t like others is “better” to insist they “deal with it”.

Accidents happen enough when all is well.
We placed an older horse with someone that turned him out with two other nice, sweet older horses that were fed around a big bale.
One day one of those horses was eating, the older horse walked by and for some reason the one eating kicked out, rare for them and broke the old horse’s shoulder.
After many months in a stall and carefully rehab, horse healed.

Accidents happen enough when all is well.
If it is not and horses fight repeatedly, that is an accident waiting to happen.
Let’s not go there on some misunderstood herd dynamics and insisting horses “deal with it”?

Ideally we will manage our horse’s lives as is best for each horse and situation, is where the “managing” part comes in.

Lets forget what we think horses should do, listen to your horses and work with what you have, some that get along, some that don’t, some situations that keep changing who likes whom and when and where, and lets us, as horse managers, be the ones to “deal with it” in the best interest of the horses involved.

Yes, it took me decades to learn that, but I finally did and can say, our horses have been less stressed and clearly happier for it.

OP, keep trying and the more you try, the more you will learn about those horses under your care and don’t be surprised that, when you think you have the answer, someone changes the questions. :upside_down_face:

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If you could try free-choice hay, I wonder if that might alleviate the issues, too.

I have two mares. A is the dominant one, and very food-motivated. Not really aggressive, but bossy about her food being hers. P is #2, not food aggressive at all. Very, very attached to A and wants to be attached to A’s hip at all times.

What I have observed is that when they are out on grass pasture, A allows P to be right next to her for grazing.

When I have to feed hay, however, A keeps P away from her hay, and moves P around until A has decided which hay she wants. (I feed in nets in troughs.)

Last year, I tried free choice hay, hoping that A would learn to self-regulate. That worked briefly before it didn’t and I had to stop. However, when I was giving them free choice hay, A would let P share the same hay net with her.

So I think resource guarding definitely plays a part, or at least it does with my two mares.

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@Pico_Banana this sounds very much like my situation and I think the same things are going on in my little herd.

Both of my horses are easy keepers, and they also waste hay if they are fed more than they want to eat. I try to get as close to free choice hay as I can without seeing a lot of waste and seeing a lot of fat on my horses.

I definitely think this is resource guarding since these horses graze within a couple of feet of each other when the grass is in.

Yeah I’m going to scrap my previous statement about my two not having arguments after today’s vet visit for stitches at the base of the forelock on the 5yo, from what I suspect was the pony belting her a good one (probably after the 5yo annoyed the living daylights out of her…)

They’re split up and will likely remain so permanently. They’re fine that way, they can see each other and talk over the (electric so no shenanigans) fence. I have the not the time, inclination or bank account for them to have scuffles like that.

Ugh, about 15ys ago I witnessed two alpha mares have a massive fight. There was rearing & striking, double barreling, attempts to bite each other’s throats, both mares ended up on the ground at least once during this time. It was very, very intense and there was certainly no safe way to intervene – there were quite a few people there and we all just stood there in horror, but had to wait for a few minutes when they did separate somewhat.

Miraculously neither of them came away with serious injuries, though both required vet treatment. Unsurprisingly they were never put back together and didn’t have any issues with the other horses they grazed with, other than being the boss. Both belonged to pony club kids and were pretty good equines other than that.

I asked a very experienced friend later if there was anything we could have done – she said the only thing she would suggest is spraying them with water if a hose would reach, otherwise any human intervention would likely just involve someone getting hurt.

I’m really glad I’ve never seen anything like that since and that most horses get on reasonably well.

OP - I hope your new plan works.

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Well, as always seems to happen with horses, by separating my dominant horse I created a new problem. I saw him falling asleep on his feet today, nodding off until his knees buckled and woke him up. Poor guy. I guess he won’t lie down even though his buddies are right next door. Sigh. Hopefully he will feel more comfortable soon.