Turnout skirmishes - would you separate?

[stb]

Looking for advice here. I have 2 geldings here at home - one is 21 and the other is 13. They have been together for 2 1/2 years. The older gelding is dominant, and a bit of a jerk about it. He was gelded late (9 y/o) and obviously spent his formative years alone. The younger gelding is not the alpha type and just generally tries to get along. However, I think he has had just about enough.

Since there is not much grass out in my pastures I have been throwing hay for the horses. The old horse always gets to choose his hay pile. Once he has chosen it and the younger gelding goes to the other pile, then the old guy decides he would like the pile the young guy has, so he pushes him off. At this point the young guy usually makes a face but goes to the open pile of hay. Lately, though, things are escalating. In the past there were lots of ugly faces and butt turning, but no actual kicks landed. In the past few days I have seen and heard a few kicks that have actually landed. The younger guy isn’t moving off the hay as readily, and they are both throwing kicks.

When my horses are in from the pastures they are in a dry lot attached to the barn. I leave the stalls open so they can come and go, and even the grumpy old guy will not encroach on the younger guy’s stall, so feeding inside the stalls is not a problem. However, I feed hay outside since the younger guy has equine asthma.

So, I’m thinking I need to separate the horses before someone gets hurt. I do have the capabilities to do that, both in the pastures and in the dry lot. However, this means that these horses will both be living somewhat solitary lives. They will be able to visit over the fences, but not really be able to hang out together. Seems a bit sad to me, but I’m also thinking better safe than sorry.

What would you do?

[S1969]

@stb

I do have the capabilities to do that, both in the pastures and in the dry lot. However, this means that these horses will both be living somewhat solitary lives. They will be able to visit over the fences, but not really be able to hang out together. Seems a bit sad to me, but I’m also thinking better safe than sorry.

I would separate them. If they don’t get along that well, being able to see each other is probably more than enough for them.

I have a dominant mare that none of my other horses really like. If she were in a separate paddock, they wouldn’t miss her. She might miss the companionship, but maybe not. It’s not uncommon for her to be alone, and the rest of the herd off doing something together.

In my case they are never hostile, so I just keep them together. But I would give it a try and see if they both seem content.

[clanter]

I would make multiple hay piles, at least three or more for two horses then they have alternatives

As for separations, ours always did this themselves

(I “think” the younger horses is detecting the waning authority of the older horse and is stepping up)

[AllTheCarrots]

I agree. One more pile than you have horses (and well spread out) seems to cut down on the competition and angst.

[lenapesadie]

I agree. I would try multiple hay piles before enforcing solitary confinement on them.

If the dry lot is smaller, it might be sensible to separate them there as tight spaces and arguing horses isn’t ideal.

I have two horses at home and I always do at least three hay piles, often 4 or 5. I do separate mine for part of the day. Gives everyone a break and makes it convenient at meal times.

[stb]

Unfortunately I always do multiple separate hay piles. The problem is that the older horse always wants the hay pile he doesn’t have. He will literally run the other gelding off of a pile, then when the younger gelding goes to another pile the older guy runs him off of that one too - even if it is the one the older guy didn’t want previously.

I agree that the younger horse may be feeling that the older guy is losing it a bit. And I totally don’t blame the younger horse in this as he has been very agreeable and accommodating for quite a long time.

I think I will separate them and see how it goes. Better safe than sorry. It makes things a little harder for me to manage but it is not that big a deal. I suspect the younger horse may even enjoy not having to constantly look over his shoulder. Thanks to everyone for weighing in.

[goodhors]

Separate them. Several hay piles are not working, young horse can’t please the old horse, so he is starting to argue about moving. Separate before it escalates and they damage each other. Save yourself a Vet billl! Sounds like the old guy won’t miss being buddies together!

[stb]

I think you are exactly right about the younger horse being unable to please the old guy. I don’t blame him for running out of patience. They are out in adjacent pastures right now and nobody looks upset or concerned.

[Bluey]

Horses don’t pine for others they are already having differences with, separating them is smart.

As you say, is not like they will be put in solitary confinement, they still see and smell and can visit with the other by the fence and watch him come and go.

We had one nice, sweet horse that was obsessed with driving the other four around, all day long, up and down their mile long pasture, to the other end and back to water and feed in the pens.
He didn’t attack or was mean, just insisting and others didn’t really want to go, but obeyed.
My older Cushing’s horse was getting sore footed from all that day and night walking with little rest to graze a bit, eat a bit, drink water a bit, stand around napping a bit, but generally just being moved here and there most of the day.

So, we put the perpetrator by himself next to the other four, in his own pasture.

Guess what, the other four stood by the fence, would not go off without him, even when he would go far off grazing or walked back into the pens.
He never cared what the others did.

We finally let that one horse go to a home where he thrived as he was kept by himself but with two others by him, heart horse for a 4H girl and everyone was happy.

Eventually years later I had to put the old Cushing’s horse by himself, he really didn’t want to have to interact with others that much.
Some old horses may be insecure and need others, some become loners and rather by left by themselves than keep being run around or needing to keep being the enforcer.

Horses, they have their own quirks and we have to try to accommodate them.
Good to be able to change to suit them and see how things go.
Don’t be surprised if some barrier aggression shows up at times, fighting a bit because they know the other can’t get to them, just being irritating, that can too become a game, but they should soon settle to just living without someone to have to watch over and make mind or someone that keeps bossing you.

Our old vet used to tell us, about half his work was patching up horses that humans keep insisting learn to live with each others when they just don’t want to do that.
Best to be proactive, not wait to see if and when such may happen if they escalate.

[S1969]

@clanter

(I “think” the younger horses is detecting the waning authority of the older horse and is stepping up)

Agreed. But it still may be wise to separate them if an incident might lead to injury.

[frugalannie]

I’ll be reading this with interest to see if there are any additional answers, not that the ones above aren’t fine. I come from a background where horses were turned out in groups of 10 or more, and injuries were very rare. And I believe that horses are social, herd animals.

On this farm there are 11 horses. I’ve managed to get 4 pairs that are fine together. Hooray because I only have 4 grass paddocks this time of year. But that leaves three that are alone. They all schmooze with others in adjoining paddocks, but one is laid up with an injury (he will eventually go out with a pair) and the other two have misbehaved too egregiously to have paddock mates. There are days when I’m temped to put them out together, but one isn’t mine.

Just venting.

[eightpondfarm]

Here i have 19 horses. Two larger groups: 8 mustangs …and the Highlands and 9 domestic horses and mules. There are few arguments inside the mustang herd and none with the domestics.

About OP…if they’ve been together and OK for 2 1/2 years i think i’d try more piles that are more separated. If they horses have to walk a distance to get to another pile i think the underdog will eventually find a spot (probably one he’s already been at) and get to finish eating more there. I have a bold gelding, a older highland bull and an older cushings mare in a corral and barn. I set them hay in four bunker feeders spread at different points in their corral, also a pile or two inside the barn and i leave the wheelbarrow with a flake or two in the corral somewhere. The gelding will move the mare (easy!) and the bull off of their chosen spots at least once …but once he sees that each pile of hay is the same as the other ones, he settles down and eats. And the other two can eat in peace. Until the end …then the gelding moves them off again to get the last bits.

THe mare and the bull also get a mid-day meal together in the barn that the gelding is gated out of. They are harder to keep in good flesh. Gelding is a bit of a chub.

The reason this particular gelding and this bull are sequestered is because they have demonstrated they are disagreeable and cause physical harm in a herd. The old cushings mare is in there because she needs extra feed.

[Scribbler]

I feel like a herd of at least 4 or 5 horses sorts dynamics a bit differently than 2 horses.

[TheJenners]

I have one who lives alone. He is a social idiot, he wants to have friends but he also wants to be too close and up in everyone’s personal space, doesn’t take hints, and when the other horse decides they are done and moves away, he will bite/chase them. So he lives alone. He isn’t lonely, he can see the other horses. I have a senior who can be a bully too but he is too ouchie to be too ugly about it, and he’s with two much more nimble horses who can scoot away pretty quickly and don’t mind giving ground.

[candyappy]

@stb

They will be able to visit over the fences, but not really be able to hang out together. Seems a bit sad to me, but I’m also thinking better safe than sorry.

It doesn’t seem like they particularly care to " hang out" together anyways? Sharing a fence line and being able to see and visit each other is probably more than sufficient for these 2.

I would imagine at least during the period of time when you have no grass and must feed hay. Both will be much more content not having to fight for food all the time.

You can try multiple hay piles but watch to make sure the old guy isn’t moving him constantly from one pile to another.

[Bluey]

Everything alive has life stressors as part of our environment.

The trick to good quality of life is to keep those at a sensible level.

Maybe separate them and watch them closely, see if both are comfortable not sharing their personal space, but still having someone around, once they realize now they are not sharing any more and that is permanent?

Most adult horses will do fine and some even clearly prefer their new found freedom from needing to interact on demand by the circumstances when in with other horses, as long as other in their management is not now stressing them, as changes can.

If they are ok alone now and later something changes, you can always give it another try together?

[Spyder]

I have been using hay huts for many years. You can use them not just for round bales. With 8 access windows the most aggressive ones tire quickly and settle down to eat peacefully.

[StormyDay]

I have a dominant horse like this. He likes exactly one of my horses, the rest he tolerates. He does like to play cake walk with the hay piles. Luckily he doesn’t kick and the others just run away to a new pile. If he had his way, he would be alone or live with his one chosen friend.

I’d separate and get the young one a goat or sheep or something. Maybe turn them all out together when the grass is good so you know there’s no food fights.

[Posting_Trot]

I think you’ve done the right thing by separating them. Especially if they’re in adjacent paddocks and can converse and snooze near each other, I really think they’re getting the best of both worlds–company and no fighting.

[Libby2563]

@Spyder

I have been using hay huts for many years. You can use them not just for round bales. With 8 access windows the most aggressive ones tire quickly and settle down to eat peacefully.

I have not had such good luck with my Hay Hut. My TB is consistently an a-hole to everyone else for no good reason. I had another horse last year who went on a hunger strike because he was terrified to get near the hay. This year I’m putting the TB in solitary for the winter!