TVG buys HRTV

[QUOTE=Flash44;8020758]
Being a good horseman and a good handicapper are not one and the same. I know great horsemen who can’t bet worth a lick, and bad horsemen, or people who are not really horsemen at all, who can cash bets pretty consistently.[/QUOTE]
I agree

Shammy, probably all the pain killers I’m on, but your reply isn’t making any sense to me:confused:

Aaron V. creeps me out also! The only commentator I would like to see them get rid of is Michelle Yu. I can’t believe how many times I’ve heard her say “I hate” something. Anything from certain horses, to certain kinds of music, to baseball! She’s incredibly unprofessional.

I got to talk with Zoe Cadman, and Kurt Hoover a couple of weeks ago. Both very nice.

[QUOTE=poniesinthenight;8019405]
I totally agree about the on air commentaries on TVG, they need some serious revamping to include relevant details like bloolines, breeder etc.[/QUOTE]
In correspondence with Rich Perloff a couple of years ago, I complained about the fact that TVG’s post parade graphics didn’t include sire/dam like HRTV. He said to call (do not email) the station and request that they include that info. If the purchase means they go to one station I certainly hope they keep that HRTV feature. I watch HRTV about 90% of the time, but TVG has a much better picture quality.

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8020867]
What a disparaging thing to say about good horsemen.:eek: In the racing industry bad and marginal horsemen can’t be good handicappers, but good horsemen understand what they are reading in a condition book and that is handicapping IMHO at its very best for those who do it well.[/QUOTE]

The condition book is about what races your horse is eligible for, and handicapping is about predicting the correct finish in a race. You can’t handicap a race until you see which horses entered the race. Right now, in my area it’s the same old horses going round and round as there are not a lot of horses running. So maybe you can handicap from the condition book, but there is always a shipper or two from another state, or maybe a horse coming off a layoff that regains a condition, that you did not expect to face when the overnight comes out. And good horsemen win 15-20% of the time, and are 1-2-3 about 50% of the time, so 50% of the time, it was not a good finish for the horse. Besides, gamblers only talk about what they win, and never talk about what they lose…so who knows for sure!

I remember back in the 1990s you had to have multiple stars to get into some races, there were so many horses and the fields were so full. Now it’s hard to get some races to go.

A good horseman knows the competition very well, but if they were that good at handicapping they would no longer be training, at least in February!

[QUOTE=sonomacounty;8020747]
Please do not harangue me for this. This is just my opinion. I prefer commentators that were or are active horseman. I find the way she presents things rather dry. Tell me what you like and I will try to watch for it and appreciate it.[/QUOTE]

I am quite certain I didn’t harangue you. I don’t mind if you don’t care for her as a commentator, but to suggest that she’s not a horseperson would be inaccurate.

Edit-- you asked what I like about her. I can tell by how she speaks that she knows what she’s looking at. She is a good judge of horseflesh, behavior, and of horses in motion. Many so-called “commentators” cannot claim that, and I respect her for it. Plus, she just seems like a kind, pleasant person. I find her to be no-nonsense, but fair.

From an old bio:

[I]Christina Olivares was born and bred for the world of horse racing. Her mother worked at the infield at Santa Anita, where she met Christina’s father, former jockey and trainer Frank Olivares. By the age of four Christina was already taking horseback-riding lessons five days a week; she got her first pony when she was six years old. She competed successfully in the world of hunter-jumpers, spending most weekends at horse shows with other Southern California riding connections such as Kristin McCarron, Ashley Stevens, and Kristin Mulhall.

With her father competing in the Southern California circuit, Christina spent her summers as a teenager working for him at Del Mar. She remembers waking early to go hot-walk and pony for her father and building sand castles at the beach with Bill Shoemaker.[/I]

[QUOTE=jennywho;8019954]
Glad I’m not the only one creeped out by Aaron :). Now that it sounds like they are planning to keep both channels, I am excited about the merger.[/QUOTE]
Oh don’t let Aaron creep you out. He is one of the nicest people you could ever meet. He only rode a few for me, but they all ran well.

[QUOTE=Toadie’s mom;8021216]
I agree

Shammy, probably all the pain killers I’m on, but your reply isn’t making any sense to me:confused: . . …[/QUOTE]

It’s probably my vertigo virus that is making my comments confusing.:wink:

Maybe I didn’t use the best example to argue my point, but the point is that handicappers are a dime a dozen and looked at as whole don’t know make a dime betting. Good horsemen do whether they are looking at the form, conformation, or the condition book have a better chance of making a living playing the ponies than any handicapper. The most informed commentators across the board, forgive the HRTV reference, are horsemen and women.

Check out how many horsemen fill the ranks of HRTV commentators versus those on TVG.

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8022252]
It’s probably my vertigo virus that is making my comments confusing.:wink:
.[/QUOTE]
So, we are literally a couple of sick individuals :lol:

[QUOTE=Toadie’s mom;8022354]
So, we are literally a couple of sick individuals :lol:[/QUOTE]

Next step is dementia which in my case is a loss of “horse sense.”:concern:

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8022252]
It’s probably my vertigo virus that is making my comments confusing.:wink:

Maybe I didn’t use the best example to argue my point, but the point is that handicappers are a dime a dozen and looked at as whole don’t know make a dime betting. Good horsemen do whether they are looking at the form, conformation, or the condition book have a better chance of making a living playing the ponies than any handicapper. The most informed commentators across the board, forgive the HRTV reference, are horsemen and women.

Check out how many horsemen fill the ranks of HRTV commentators versus those on TVG.[/QUOTE]

Ehhhhh…an awful lot of handicappers I know, who make VASTLY more money than I do at it, have never physically laid hands on a horse. Reading the condition book isn’t about knowing the horses as much as figuring out who especially weird sub-stakes-conditions were written to benefit. Most who are post-parade watchers, which is a legit strategy, are also not ‘horsemen’ in the sense of having ever directly worked with horses. They’ve been watching racehorses for years, though. Handicapping is, at heart, getting really good at statistics and patterns. (Ironic, given how I suck at every other form of math and stats in particular, though I’m not calculating them, just learning pattern recognition.)

And I’m amused by how giddy the TVG guys are being able to cover Gulfstream.

[QUOTE=danceronice;8022501]
Ehhhhh…an awful lot of handicappers I know, who make VASTLY more money than I do at it, have never physically laid hands on a horse. Reading the condition book isn’t about knowing the horses as much as figuring out who especially weird sub-stakes-conditions were written to benefit. Most who are post-parade watchers, which is a legit strategy, are also not ‘horsemen’ in the sense of having ever directly worked with horses. They’ve been watching racehorses for years, though. Handicapping is, at heart, getting really good at statistics and patterns. (Ironic, given how I suck at every other form of math and stats in particular, though I’m not calculating them, just learning pattern recognition.)

And I’m amused by how giddy the TVG guys are being able to cover Gulfstream.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, I’m very skeptical that the majority of handicappers you are familiar with actually make a good or subsantial living solely gambling. Though most of the research done on sports gambling speaks to the human problems and social consequences connected with betting, it has been well reported that it is the “tote” that makes a profit, not the gambler. That is why it is called entertainment and that is why the “house” is ever ready to extend credit. The % varies, but less 10% of all track bettors actually leave the track with a profit. Betting shops in the UK, AU, USA, CA, et al are “retail” and considered in a business sense to be enterprises for enjoyment.

I recall some years back that TVG aired a special series highlighting a few CA handicappers. None of them were living anywhere near conventional financially stable lives.

Some years back, Caton Bredar hosted “Night Class” which went into everything involved in the visual aspects of handicapping. The idea that “horsemen” instincts are critical beyond the form.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/night-school-visual-handicapping/

Agree with you that handicapping is recognizing statistics and numbers, but bettors who depend solely on that are highly vulnerable to failure.

Arnold Rothstein, a well known handicapper and gambler and noted “crook,” bet horseracing big time in the early 1900’s at NY tracks primarily at Saratoga without having a clue about what made the horse “tick.” AR, who made unheard of bets on stakes races at $100K and more that had purses for less than $8K, never depended on form alone and maintained friends and employees who were all horsemen to advise him. In his groups of collaborators were racehorse trainers like Sam Hildreth (a capable gambler in his own right) . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Hildreth

. . . track vets, grooms, hot walkers, etc. Not to mention a plethora of agents he had salaried as bookmakers across the country. Save none, no one has ever exceeded the gambling prowess (and criminality) of Rothstein in the world of American sports betting.

Unfortunately, Arnold hung around with the wrong sorts and ended up with a bullet in his tummy.

In theory unchanged, gambling has been thriving in the USA since 1607 and Jamestown and as I said earlier, with all due respect, I don’t dispute the fact that a few can make money betting the “ponies,” but “few” is the key word. If it were anything other than that, corporations and businesses would be flocking to the “betting” side of the industry.

Lots of misconceptions involved in handicapping races. For example, there is no significant effect of carrying weight (assigned weight) on the outcome of a race until the horse carries 13% or more of it’s body weight. That’s 130 lbs for a 1,000 pound race horse, and we rarely see that weight any more.

[QUOTE=Flash44;8025308]
Lots of misconceptions involved in handicapping races. For example, there is no significant effect of carrying weight (assigned weight) on the outcome of a race until the horse carries 13% or more of it’s body weight. That’s 130 lbs for a 1,000 pound race horse, and we rarely see that weight any more.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Long out of print, one of my prized bookshelf possessions is “Weight on the Thoroughbred Racehorse” by Irene McCanliss. If you can find it, I recommend it to you.

One of the great fears in the by gone era was whether handicap horses could carry weight above 130 lbs. In KELSO’s last season on the track, as I recall, he carried 138 lbs and the reason Allaire DuPont chose to retire him for the second time was the fear that he would be assigned 140 pounds. I can’t recall that the issue ever came up with any Triple Crown winning horses from CITATION forward. You’d have thought it would have been with SECRETARIAT but apparently the size and weight of his “balls” was more of an issue.

Weight isn’t a consideration in this day and age, though you would think with TB size increasing, that increased weight to 140 lbs might not be bothersome at the graded level.

This might be of interest. It’s a Korean study, no less, but there is relatively little research done on weight that applies to current racing.

http://scielo.isciii.es/pdf/azoo/v60n231/art55.pdf

In QH racing, generally equal weights are assigned all horses. I can’t ever recall a handicap QH race.

Flash44: Don’t know if you’ve seen this but it might be of interest to you. The Sports Library has lots of historical data that are a good reference to current circumstances.

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_41/outLXI01/outLXI01f.pdf

Thanks, Shammy. I spent the better part of an afternoon reading the Korean study over and over! I love statistics.

Judging from comments on the broadcast this morning, going to be some changes on HRTV starting tomorrow. Was planning to DVR the big races Sat., because I’ll be gone all day, so keeping my fingers crossed about who I might see on air.

[QUOTE=Toadie’s mom;8043473]
Judging from comments on the broadcast this morning, going to be some changes on HRTV starting tomorrow. Was planning to DVR the big races Sat., because I’ll be gone all day, so keeping my fingers crossed about who I might see on air.[/QUOTE]

Haven’t had much time to watch horseracing on the TV. Been up to my ears for the past four weeks in mud and snow.:eek: The weather channel has been my viewing of choice most recently. 32F here today. 56F tomorrow. I’m definitely ready to renew my beach tan. Mrs Shammy noted the other day that the thought of seeing me in shorts, flops, and shirtless is a reminder that there are worse things than wet cold weather.:confused:

Googled “HRTV changes” just to see if anything was being reported.

Ray Paulick wrote this earlier on the subject.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/tvg-and-hrtv-merger-what-does-it-mean/

Sounds like HRTV and TVG will keep their own silks but be stabled together. I had noticed last week that Caton Bredar was appearing from GS on TVG. I thought to myself, that a big improvement over the normal at TVG. Will be interested to see how the betting houses operate in connection with both.

Most of us can relate to the bad weather blues! Unfortunately, I have extenuating circumstances which relegate me to forego most activities, except watching TV :frowning: Come to think of it, I probably shouldn’t describe that as an activity.

Anyway, sounds like Peter Lurie is looking for a new job, but Millie Ball was refraining from too much comment so hopefully she’s staying. Be nice to have someone who actually knows horses living under the TVG banner. When I have to listen/watch Matt Currothers all day, is when I’ll quit watching all together.

[QUOTE=Toadie’s mom;8043639]
Most of us can relate to the bad weather blues! Unfortunately, I have extenuating circumstances which relegate me to forego most activities, except watching TV :frowning: Come to think of it, I probably shouldn’t describe that as an activity.

Anyway, sounds like Peter Lurie is looking for a new job, but Millie Ball was refraining from too much comment so hopefully she’s staying. Be nice to have someone who actually knows horses living under the TVG banner. When I have to listen/watch Matt Currothers all day, is when I’ll quit watching all together.[/QUOTE]

Extenuating circumstances and undescribable activities? I’ll keep my imagination under wraps.:wink:

I watched HRTV for a short time today and got the impression something was amiss with Peter Lurie. I like the guy. It will be interesting to see what happens to all the former TVG personalities that had moved over to HRTV.

Have to agree with you about Matt C. There is the “mute” button on the remote though and I use it. I don’t allow any other clowns in our TV room, but me.

I have a feeling that Frank Stronach is going to get elected to the Jockey Club soon. He is doing everything he can to measure up to JC membership standards of not only taking all the “fun” out of horseracing but also insuring its demise before the turn of 22nd century. Add a hundred or so pounds to Frank’s girth and accelerate male pattern baldness and you get Dinny’s twin.

I read on Twitter that the on screen people at HRTV were told this morning that today was their last day.

That is really cruddy.

And I always watched HRTV, so I am sad that TVG is the surviving entity.

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8044304]
I read on Twitter that the on screen people at HRTV were told this morning that today was their last day.

That is really cruddy.

And I always watched HRTV, so I am sad that TVG is the surviving entity.[/QUOTE]

No!! :no: