Twist Width: Custom Advantage vs Steffen's Advantage

[CanteringOn]

I’m an adult re-rider finally learning dressage for eventing, after growing up in the H/J world (many decades ago, ahem). Last summer I bought a used 2008 Custom Advantage 17" and instantly loved it — I had an immediate “tack breakthrough” with the canter, which I could instantly sit even with my legs long. Yay! I’ve been plagued with hip pain after riding dressage, but I figured that was my body trying to learn its new position.

My trainer bought a used 2014 17" Steffen’s Advantage monoflap around the same time, and a few days ago I rode in it on my guy. I loved the monoflap (lighter weight! better close-contact feel!), but what blew my mind was that my hips didn’t hurt after riding in it. :congratulatory:

All this time, I figured the problem was me…but could it be the saddle twist? Does anyone know if these two saddles have different twist widths?

Thanks!

[Scribbler]

What happens if you put the 2 saddles side by side and compare how they look? Check out twist but also where the stirrup bars are in relation to the deep part of the seat, etc.

Also when you say hips hurt, do you know what muscles? That would give you a clue as to what kind of pressure is damaging you.

[netg]

A monoflap will feel narrower as a general rule. Since the Steffen’s Advantage is the off the rack version of the same basic saddle, my suspicion is they are the same twist, but I’m not familiar with the signature line.
I have an Advantage Monoflap and an Advantage R, and flocking makes a huge difference as well. Mine are flocked to be as close to 2x4s as possible, because I’m made for a very narrow twist.

[soloudinhere]

@netg

A monoflap will feel narrower as a general rule. Since the Steffen’s Advantage is the off the rack version of the same basic saddle, my suspicion is they are the same twist, but I’m not familiar with the signature line.
I have an Advantage Monoflap and an Advantage R, and flocking makes a huge difference as well. Mine are flocked to be as close to 2x4s as possible, because I’m made for a very narrow twist.

You cannot change the twist of a saddle by flocking the planets. Twist width is a feature of the tree shape and the shape of the foam used to pad the seat. You could completely remove the flocking in the panels and nothing about the width of the twist or seat would change.

[gailbyrd]

@soloudinhere

You cannot change the twist of a saddle by flocking the planets. Twist width is a feature of the tree shape and the shape of the foam used to pad the seat. You could completely remove the flocking in the panels and nothing about the width of the twist or seat would change.

Perhaps, but the amount of flocking in the panels can make a difference in how your thigh lays on the saddle thereby influencing how your leg falls. Had this happen to me, twist was fine, saddle fitter screwed it up by flocking the panels (which then caused the saddle not to fit the horse at that point either, she wasn’t very good at her job).

[netg]

@gailbyrd

Perhaps, but the amount of flocking in the panels can make a difference in how your thigh lays on the saddle thereby influencing how your leg falls. Had this happen to me, twist was fine, saddle fitter screwed it up by flocking the panels (which then caused the saddle not to fit the horse at that point either, she wasn’t very good at her job).

Exactly. Flocking makes a HUGE difference in feel, even though, true, it does not change the twist itself.

[soloudinhere]

@gailbyrd

Perhaps, but the amount of flocking in the panels can make a difference in how your thigh lays on the saddle thereby influencing how your leg falls. Had this happen to me, twist was fine, saddle fitter screwed it up by flocking the panels (which then caused the saddle not to fit the horse at that point either, she wasn’t very good at her job).

The panels belong to the horse. If you are moving flocking around to try to adjust rider fit, assuming that the saddle is correctly balanced front to back - then you’re in the wrong saddle. You cannot change the physical dimensions of a twist or “flock it like a 2x4” because you cannot change anything about the tree dimensions no matter how much flocking you take out - and punish the horse’s back in the process.

[CanteringOn]

I just got off the phone with the very nice local Custom rep, and now I have more info, and we have a new hypothesis to be tested.

She confirmed that the Steffen’s Advantage should have the same tree as the non-Steffen’s Advantage. However, there are several things that might be a factor here in my hip pain:

(1) Saddle age difference. My Custom Advantage is a 2008, my trainer’s Steffen’s Advantage is a 2014, so there may be some tree differences because of evolution in the tree between those years.

(2) Double flaps on mine vs. trainer’s monoflap w/external blocks — the blocks are around the same size, but the padded knee roll on mine adds about a a half-inch in width on each side, so my tight hunter-hips are feeling more strain. I’m guessing a singleflap might cause similar problems because it would still have the padded knee roll over the block.

(3) Her hypothesis: Although I don’t have a chair seat in my saddle (which was wonderful for me, given my horse’s big barrel and narrow shoulders), it’s possible that big blocks + padded knee roll = hip strain pushes me to unconsciously sit farther back in the seat, which would effectively mean a wider twist, which might also cause hip pain. :ambivalence:

She’s going to see if she can find a few saddles for me to test, though I live in the boonies and it may take a while for us to meet up. Meanwhile I’m going to try my trainer’s saddle again tomorrow and make sure the hip pain disappearance wasn’t a fluke!

[Magicboy]

So glad you found a good customer rep to help you out

[sheltona01]

Flocking will not change the twist of the saddle, however it can cause it to feel differently. If it is pommel high, it will sit you back into more of the wider part of the saddle. If it is pommel low, it will sit you further forward into the more narrower part of the saddle.

Canteringon: I am glad you local custom rep could help you. I was going to say the same thing about the age of the saddles and the model updates. Blocks can also make a huge difference on how the saddle feels.

[chantal]

I feel like the Steffen’s Adv is higher off the horses back which will make it feel narrower. I didn’t care of it. I really like the Adv R for the narrow twist and closer contact feel. See if she has an Adv R for you to try and compare at the same time. I get hip pain if a saddle is too wide and need a narrow twist as well.

Not a saddle fitter, but have tried way too many saddles in the past 4 months on my guy. Jjust my opinion and worth every cent you paid for it.

[CanteringOn]

Good to know!. And yes, she did mention the Adv R, so if she has one in my size I’ll get to try it. Do you know if there are other ways the Adv R is different?

[Moogles]

Also consider Everest R. I just got one and love it, my hips and back felt really good in the demo. I was told to try the Everest R over the Advantage R as I get back pain easily. I can’t tell you why they steered me that direction, but when I demoed it, I had zero pain.

[CanteringOn]

Zero pain = great, Moogles!

I think the rep mentioned the Everest R, but also that it had a different tree shape than the Adv and that (IIRC) we weren’t sure would work for my guy (who was biggish withers, then not much curvature ascending toward croup, yet is tent-shaped side-to-side). However, it will be fun to try these, and see what fits him and what fits me. I hope there’s an overlapping section in the Venn diagram!

My horse seems to like my Custom Adv, and I do love it for my position in it and my comfort…everywhere but my darned hips.

I’ll be test-riding my trainer’s Steffen Adv again today to check. Unlike in my usual routine, I will not take a pain reliever before riding this time, and will see what happens.

[joiedevie99]

I adore my Everest R. It’s got shorter tree points and a lot of room around the shoulder/wither area which my horse seems to appreciate. It also has a non-standard knee block that I greatly prefer to the long one they show online.

[CanteringOn]

Good, that makes me excited to try it! My trainer’s Steffen Adv has the long blocks and I’d prefer shorter, though I could live with 'em if needed.

[tbchick84]

I sat in a lot of saddles when I was shopping for a narrow twist saddle. The Steffen’s Advantage was by far the most narrow. It’s the only one I felt let my legs just hang naturally without my tight hips getting in the way. Unfortunately for me, it didn’t balance me well on my horse, but yes, the narrow twist combined with the monoflap design is about as narrow as you’re going to find.

[CanteringOn]

That definitely makes me want one, @tbchick84! I rode in my trainer’s Steffen Advantage again today, took no pain pill beforehand, and had no pain during or after. Mindblowing after a year of hip aches.

The Steffen seems to fit my boy nicely, so I have hope. Unfortunately, they seem to be super scarce in the size combo I’m looking for. Out of curiosity, when you were on your saddle search, were you able to compare the Custom Adv vs. the Steffen’s?

Also, what saddle did you end up with? If there are others with narrow twists I should check out, please lemme know.

[gailbyrd]

@CanteringOn

Also, what saddle did you end up with? If there are others with narrow twists I should check out, please lemme know.

If you have a Stubben rep in your area, try the 1864 model. On my MW to W mare, this was the one that allowed my leg to hang properly and I have no back or hip pain while riding in it. Stubben also has a couple of other models they say have a narrow twist but the 1864 was the one that worked for me. Of course, your mileage may vary.

Good luck. Finding the right saddle combo for you and your horse can be like finding a needle in a haystack. I’ve got the hay in my hair to prove it :D:D

[chantal]

The Everest R did not work for me. I think it was too wide in the back where my seatbones are. Not sure if I’m remembering the right saddle or not.

The Advantage R is their closest contact saddle as far as I can tell from trying out probably every one of their saddles in the past 5 months (and a few more last saturday). I feel like I’m plugged into the horse. It also has shorter tree points, I think that’s what the R means. Best to ask your custom rep though to clarify. I also think the Advantage R has a slightly less deep seat but that could be just how it felt to me.

It was interesting. My 25 yo Niedersuss is now working for my guy so our plan is to keep riding him in it while he grows and while the custom rep tries to find a used Advantage R for me. I’m still not sure whether I need a 17 1/2 or 18 since I haven’t been able to ride in the Adv. R in a 17 1/2, just an 18.

Best to have the rep come out with all the saddles they can for you to try at one time to compare. You’ll know when you sit in the one that works for you. It just gets better and better as you ride in it.