[QUOTE=beaujolais;8677681]
^^^^^^. We know there is no medicating going on in show horses, right? ;)[/QUOTE]
HA HA Nope none there!!
Would basketball, football, baseball, tennis, etc. players be there without the money?
Would racecar drivers of all classes be there without purses?
Professional sport is professional sport.
Even the Olympics is open to professionals, now.
Without betting, the racing industry would need to follow the model used by other sports and get federal and state funding, instead. The current model pays the States part of the betting handle; unsurprisingly, States like that plan.
Is it the best possible model for horse racing? That’s a different and controversial discussion by itself.
Even Show Jumping puts up big purses -the top riders will not go to small potatoes venues and the sport pursues sponsorships, etc. just like other pro sports.
Depending on the prestige and value added to the HORSE as a possible sale, many chase points and wins in various horse sports offering little to no ‘money’ prizes. Hunters is not a moneyless discipline just because the prizes at shows are nil.
If chemistry could make winners out of losing horses, why breed? Why learn to actually train? Amazingly, many people are still breeding and honing their training skills.
Most adult humans have paying jobs: it is about the money. Money is not evil, it is how most people keep score. Do better get paid better.
For RodeoFTW, who is not against Arabian racing…
Alas, Arabians sustain injuries in racing, too. There are even studies about such things.
Providing a link to studies - aka, accumulations of statistics and theories of why things happen/ how things might be changed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22708365
Not much ranting going on in the studies, or even claims of ‘facts that are discovered’.
Trends, avenues of exploration that may prove rewarding, absolutely.
Enjoy
Jim R: I clearly don’t get your motivation for this thread. My first thought is maliciousness. After 40 years, as a journeyman horseman and farrier, I don’t recall a decade that this issue hasn’t been discussed. The research on the issue of racehorse injury and death is almost galactic and clearly shows that only about 1% of racehorse injuries are definitely surface related. Even reports on the most recent deaths on Preakness Day indicate they were not surface related. As compared to the number of starts, on average, racehorse deaths are minute.
The data is always in arrears to current activity, but I think this link is representative of industry. Only CA, the industry as a whole falls all over itself to give back to the entire horse industry as well as looking for ways to benefit itself.
http://graphics.latimes.com/towergraphic-la-me-horse-deaths/
If you want to see real horse welfare abuse issues, visit a few local rescues who get the hacks dumped on them. I find it interesting that people like you show up every once in awhile on the racing forum (most often during the Triple Crown or when some knowledge deficient sports writers thinks they are on to a scoop) and it is only to deliver bad news.
I would like you to stick around for awhile on the racing forum and participate in a few threads so we can see what you are really about. Then these 9 pages of emotional exhaustion and inaccuracy might have accomplished something beyond providing repetitive thinking to the archives.
Here are some interesting statistics:
Birth rate 13 per 1000
Death rate 8 per 1000
Emotional rant: The death rate is SIXTY-TWO PERCENT OF THE BIRTH RATE!!! ELEVENTY !!
-For humans in the USA.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.CBRT.IN/countries
The ‘slaughter stats for Thoroughbreds’ is somewhere around 19% compared to foal crop (birth rate)…
hmmmm?
Does anyone think that all horses eventually die, just as humans do?
Presentation of stats is everything, folks.
Figures don’t lie…
But liars, sure can figure.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8677345]
Just because I was pointing out things I’ve sen from ottbs doesn’t mean I was insulting the breed as a whole. I like thoroughbreds, and I’ve said that enough times that you all shouldn’t be taking everything so personally.
But I’ve been to places like CANTER, I’ve seen how they look when they come off the track, and I know of at least one right now who had to be retired because she flipped over the starting gate at her last race! That’s not normal and she has issues. Her poor rider has been working with her for about three years, and she still isn’t trustworthy or very cooperative (mind you different horses act in different ways).
She isn’t the first one I’ve seen like that, either. Just the most recent.
I ride all breeds. I don’t restrict myself to just one. …[/QUOTE]
Would there be a certain discipline that you ride, perhaps?
When was the last time you rode a Shetland pony? A Missouri Foxtrotter? A Percheron?
You do realize that even the non-racebred TBs come from 300 years plus of race directed breeding ancestry?
What is it about TBs you like, in your experience?
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8677758]
Here are some interesting statistics:
Birth rate 13 per 1000
Death rate 8 per 1000
Emotional rant: The death rate is SIXTY-TWO PERCENT OF THE BIRTH RATE!!! ELEVENTY !!
-For humans in the USA.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.CBRT.IN/countries
The ‘slaughter stats for Thoroughbreds’ is somewhere around 19% compared to foal crop (birth rate)…
hmmmm?
Presentation of stats is everything, folks.
Figures don’t lie…
But liars, sure can figure.[/QUOTE]
Taking malicious thinking to the next level are you? It is ashame COTH doesn’t have a “you are going to hell” forum. That might draw your participation away from the racing forum.
I would like to see some documentation for your slaughter rates. It is higher than I would like but nowhere near 19%. But don’t let that get in the way of a good argument.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8673179]
Exactly. They start those horses young, drugged up, and fast. My BO used to work on the track (tbs and stbds) and she hates tbs now because of all the bad experiences with them. I don’t blame the horses though, I blame the environment and culture.
I mean, what other equine sport is so notorious for dumping its rejects to the kill pens in such high numbers like horse racing does?
Or breeds a new batch of some 18,000 horses a year, 10,000 of which yearly get sent to slaughter? Some 300 out of every 1,000 actually race, but lord knows how many actually earn a soft landing? Or get a retirement?
Another 1,000 a year die on the track.
It’s not the same as very other equine sport.[/QUOTE]
Heavens, folks,
I was replying to the above presented stats which apparently come from this
http://www.savingamericashorses.org/Case_Study_U.S._Thoroughbreds_Slaughtered_2002-2010-WFLF.pdf
My attempt to point out the absurdity of the interpretation of the numbers by using comparable figures from human statistics obviously fell flat.
Shammy, I am sorry my support of racing is unwelcome to you. Carry on with your rebuttals.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8677816]
Heavens, folks,
I was replying to the above presented stats which apparently come from this
http://www.savingamericashorses.org/Case_Study_U.S._Thoroughbreds_Slaughtered_2002-2010-WFLF.pdf
My attempt to point out the absurdity of the interpretation of the numbers by using comparable figures from human statistics obviously fell flat.
Shammy, I am sorry my support of racing is unwelcome to you. Carry on with your rebuttals.[/QUOTE]
It’s good to cite websites to support statistics and opinions. I did not go to the link in the quote above, but I suspect it is skewed towards a negative opinion about racing in general.
The Jockey Club is tracking the breakdown rate for horses that are racing. There have been some surprising results. The more data they amass, the better we will be able to identify factors that place a horse at risk and do something to mitigate those risks.
http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=Advocacy&area=10
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8677816]
Heavens, folks,
I was replying to the above presented stats which apparently come from this
http://www.savingamericashorses.org/Case_Study_U.S._Thoroughbreds_Slaughtered_2002-2010-WFLF.pdf
My attempt to point out the absurdity of the interpretation of the numbers by using comparable figures from human statistics obviously fell flat.
Shammy, I am sorry my support of racing is unwelcome to you. Carry on with your rebuttals.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for sharing that source. I assume I don’t have to point out the giant flaw in those statistics for most of us here. The rest will read what they want into it.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;8677791]
I would like to see some documentation for your slaughter rates. It is higher than I would like but nowhere near 19%. But don’t let that get in the way of a good argument.[/QUOTE]
Much of what some have been presenting lately all over COTH to show anything we do with animals and especially here horses is bad seems to be right out of animal rights extremist propaganda.
Maybe that is intentional, maybe is just lack of sufficient knowledge to put what is read thru those channels in the proper context with what the true data is, that I don’t know.
I would say it is a good guess that may indeed be questionable.
Edited to add:
I see that was already addressed in the previous post to mine as I was writing.
Thank you.
https://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/al_ls635.txt
This is an eye opener-- 30,000 horse have shipped to Mexico so far this year-so it is a matter of seeing whether USDA breaks down by breed. (I did not realize so many were still be shipped and that is just south…)
[QUOTE=omare;8677895]
https://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/al_ls635.txt
This is an eye opener-- 30,000 horse have shipped to Mexico so far this year-so it is a matter of seeing whether USDA breaks down by breed. (I did not realize so many were still be shipped and that is just south…)[/QUOTE]
There are an estimated 9.2 Million horses in the US.
Stand alone numbers can be misleading out of context. For what it is worth, shipments north are much lower than going south, and there is seasonality to the market number fluctuation.
Sorry for going off topic.
[QUOTE=Bluey;8677880]
Much of what some have been presenting lately all over COTH to show anything we do with animals and especially here horses is bad seems to be right out of animal rights extremist propaganda.
Maybe that is intentional, maybe is just lack of sufficient knowledge to put what is read thru those channels in the proper context with what the true data is, that I don’t know.
I would say it is a good guess that may indeed be questionable.
Edited to add:
I see that was already addressed in the previous post to mine as I was writing.
Thank you.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, Bluey
Sadly, if one uses google, the AR propagandists flood the lists, making it hard for novice or young information seekers to locate real numbers or find a sensible explanation of what they mean.
+
Back on topic
Racing is one of the relatively few equestrian activities still available for view to non-attendees through major media, at least in a fractional part.
I suspect pari-mutuel may have something to do with that, but I am glad nonetheless. The more young people are exposed to horses, the better future for all horse related activities.
[QUOTE=beaujolais;8677681]
^^^^^^ We know there is no medicating going on in show horses, right? ;)[/QUOTE]
Great justification of drugging race horses:lol:
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8677816]
Heavens, folks,
I was replying to the above presented stats which apparently come from this
http://www.savingamericashorses.org/Case_Study_U.S._Thoroughbreds_Slaughtered_2002-2010-WFLF.pdf
My attempt to point out the absurdity of the interpretation of the numbers by using comparable figures from human statistics obviously fell flat.
Shammy, I am sorry my support of racing is unwelcome to you. Carry on with your rebuttals.[/QUOTE]
If I misread or misunderstood your post, you have my sincerest apology. With 10 pages, it is very difficult to keep track of who is posting to what. That is why there is “reply with quote” link.
Your dead baby data threw me. I can barely remember when my children were conceived. I often don’t remember how many there are. Mrs Shammy insists they are all mine. They all call me dad, so I believe her. Please make connections with your responses, some of us are old and fending off dementia.
To quote Texarkana, “10 pages, really?”
Once again, you have my apology.
“Great justification of drugging race horses.”
Twisting things. You vilify racing yet medicating horses occurs in all disciplines. Where did I condone it? I simply stated it occurs in all disciplines. Poor logic and arguing technique, there.
Again, you react because you SEE it on television. If they televised all the used up riding horses getting shipped off to slaughter and that terrible death . . .
[QUOTE=Jim R;8677938]
Great justification of drugging race horses:lol:[/QUOTE]
Gee, JimR, does this response mean you are going to stick around the racing forum? I’m excited that finally we have got an anti-horse racing participant to join in our discussions. Where do we begin with you? Poll or dock?
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8677837]
It’s good to cite websites to support statistics and opinions. I did not go to the link in the quote above, but I suspect it is skewed towards a negative opinion about racing in general.
The Jockey Club is tracking the breakdown rate for horses that are racing. There have been some surprising results. The more data they amass, the better we will be able to identify factors that place a horse at risk and do something to mitigate those risks.
http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=Advocacy&area=10[/QUOTE]
Thank you for this.
