Two week trial, disunited canter

[findeight]

Couple of thoughts and a question…

Horses don’t just transition to canter by themselves, they have to be balanced and straight with a slight bend, not leaning in on a shoulder going crooked with no contact. Horse has been off for some time and mat be out if condition. Rider may not have set horse up correctly for a correct canter depart-meaning both ends on the same lead. Also would not be too quick to condem an unbalanced canter depart conducted in a big field with loose horses (not a good idea BTW). This horse spent most of it’s time with successful owners in an arena, try it there.

I would not put too much weight in the KS diagnosis pronounced by some random person at the barn, no no doubt internet expertise instead of based on actual diagnostics by a qualified vet or clinic with proper imaging equipment.

Over the years (decades actually), have learned to be very skeptical of the " didnt have time" or " kid was scared of it" excuse for horses sitting around doing nothing but racking up a considerable board bill for a year. That gets expensive and is usually only part of a story that is more involved then shared.

And the question…who are you buying the horse from? Will you write a check to the trainer? Or to the actual owner? Trust but verify, who owns the horse?

[findeight]

Couple of thoughts and a question…

Horses don’t just transition to canter by themselves, they have to be balanced and straight with a slight bend, not leaning in on a shoulder going crooked with no contact. Horse has been off for some time and mat be out if condition. Rider may not have set horse up correctly for a correct canter depart-meaning both ends on the same lead. Also would not be too quick to condem an unbalanced canter depart conducted in a big field with loose horses (not a good idea BTW). This horse spent most of it’s time with successful owners in an arena, try it there.

I would not put too much weight in the KS diagnosis pronounced by some random person at the barn, no doubt internet expertise instead of based on actual diagnostics by a qualified vet or clinic with proper imaging equipment. If it is a physical problem, more likely something in the back end or possibly neck then KS.

Over the years (decades actually), have learned to be very skeptical of the " didnt have time" or " kid was scared of it" excuse for horses sitting around doing nothing but racking up a considerable board bill for a year. That gets expensive and is usually only part of a story that is more involved then shared.

And the question…who are you buying the horse from? Will you write a check to the trainer? Or to the actual owner? Trust but verify, who owns the horse?

[Riponite]

BO selling horse on behalf of owner, but will be contacting owner to negotiate trial and possible sale. BO has no arena (how does she teach?) but has access to one and is prepared to meet me there. with the horse. So in those better circumstances I will hope to see her ridden and watch her canter, and have a much better ride myself. Before, she hadn’t been ridden in a week, ground was terrible and she was very distracted by the young horses in the field. Thank you for so much good advice and I’ll keep you posted.

[TheHunterKid90]

A lot of people coming up with worst case scenario things…when I have one that cross fires or falls out of lead I immediately think front end. Feet or knees specifically. But her stifle cords could also be loose or the joint might be thirsty and looking for an injection. I would try to get more background info…see if this is a chronic problem. Sounds more like way out of shape and a little sore up front!

[katyb]

There’s also the problem was the teenager, who didn’t really want to/have the ability to canter. It’s hard for a horse to get it right, carrying a rider who always gets it wrong.

[LilyandBaron]

If the sellers are motivated, I think the longer trial sounds smart - they get a month off from the horse costs, you do the conditioning work, and maybe you find your perfect match, or maybe realize it’s a money pit to address the issues.

There are lots of things that could be going on, as others have noted. My TB mare has occasionally struggled with her leads behind. I initially thought it was conditioning - I’d had to ride less due to life events. Then I wondered if it was the muddy/hilly pastures, then later, realized it was maybe her transitional heat - I’ve had her in consistent work the last two years, and had the issue and the canter problems coincided with heat issues. Regumate fixed it. But I’ve also done myofascial massages and that fixed it. So for my mare it was different things/overlapping stuff, but nothing terrible - muddy pastures and a massage fixed it, out of shape, so work fixed it, and mare issues, and hormones fixed it. I think it’d be worth getting the PPE and talk to the vet about your concerns - they would know what best to check for “deal-breaker” issues, and also get a trusted/respected pro that does body work - chiro or myofascial are what I prefer. That, plus the longer trial, should help you get the answer you need to buy or pass.

On a separate note, while I know some teens are challenging, I don’t understand how much work the canter would be and why they’d be with multiple trainers - I mean, canter is honestly easier than trot, if the person isn’t scared of a bit of speed. I always have suspicions about sales horses who are essentially retired at a young age - was it really the teen, was it a lameness thing, or an attitude thing? So, buyer beware, and good luck!

[CHT]

I would go about it differently. If you can try the horse in a better environment and it goes well, I would then vet it. If it does well on the PPE, then do a trial. When people do a trial before the PPE they seem to struggle more with being objective. There is also the risk that the seller could claim the issue on the PPE was caused by the trial (which it might be…if you are really testing the horse and working it harder than it is used to, it may get body sore and/or foot sore by the end of the two weeks.

[findeight]

OP…I was thinking about this…you have no idea what this horses background really is. You are depending on what a trainer purporting to represent the seller, who says the horse was dumped on her after having a successful show career then failing at several other barns under other trainers before failing in her barn is telling you? Who blames the horse’s current owners and/or their minor child for not wanting or being too lazy to work thru issues or learn how to canter over what sounds like quite a long period of time?

And the horse has sat for quite some time unused running up bills at trainers breeding farm instead of lesson barn trainer also owns/runs???

My bullshitometer is old and the numbers around the gauge are worn off from heavy use. But the needle is right at the high end of the yellow caution zone almost to the red stinky zone.

Dont depend on tales of the horses past successes unless there is a written record or you personally have seen it compete and know the horse.

Those who run lesson barns generally have a higher turnover in horses and do a lot of buying, selling, flipping and dealing. Not saying this trainer is lying but they have a vested interest in selling the horse and they may…puff…the merchandise. Ask the trainer these things…

What year(s) the horse showed above the walk trot level

What horses show name was/is

Where it showed all that Eq and stuff.

Most local circuits have websites and keep records, you can contact them. How old is this horse being represented as? What is the name of the horse’s current owner trainer is acting as agent for? You need that to search show records.

It doesn’t sound like you know this trainer very well. Never assume “trainer” means squeaky clean just because it’s a Pro or that you are getting the whole truth and nothing but. Not to say it’s blatant lies but a savvy horse person can evaluate and pick up an attractive but cheap horse of unknown history that has obviously had some training and seen a show ring. Then advertise it as a show horse possibly inventing some story about client not having time, money or being stupid or lazy.

The pings sounding on the bullshitometer are in response to owning/running a lesson barn with no arena, also simultaneously owning/running a breeding farm where this previously successful show horse was living instead of living at the lesson barn where it could be useful/make trainer some money, changing barns/trainers several times and throwing the minor child client under the bus as too lazy. I don’t believe it.

Will also offer you this advice as you sound like an inexperienced buyer…having trainer bring that horse to somebody else’s arena for you to try? I bet it will be perfect. Unless trainer is brain dead, that sale horse will be presented as good as it can be…whatever it takes. If you want to proceed with this one? Take it for 30 day trial or not at all. And price a good PPE including a drug screen before you get the your heart set on this one.

The very best horses to buy are horses you are familiar with, that have been at the current location for some time presented by horse folk well known to you with good reputation. Trust but VERIFY.

Treat it like buying a used car, expect the history is not exactly as stated…like they left out the fact that way under market priced Audi just shipped up from Houston, the Carfax is not available as they haven’t switched it to their name yet. The title that’s “coming in the mail any day now” is a salvage title because it was under 4’ of water 3 weeks ago. You can run a sort of Horsefax on your own and don’t buy unless you do that…

I dunno, maybe this is an OK horse but never knew any professional horseman acting as agent for a seller, even with cheap horses, presenting horse as a show horse successful some years back letting a buyer try it in a field with loose horses…that’s a pretty backyardish operation.

[Gestalt]

My sister’s quarab (Arab/quarterhorse) would crossfire going to the right if you didn’t set him up just right and then keep your left leg active to keep him in that lead. He was an older guy when she got him and was always a bit stiff on that side. But if the rider gave him the support he needed to be balanced he was great.

This kissing spine diagnosis by someone at the barn reminds me of all the “fads” that go thru. Yes there are conditions and illnesses that horses can have, but let’s not jump to the worst case scenario. Otherwise we’ll need to consider ulcers, hocks, epm, etc. :winkgrin:

She sounds like she is a calm, obedient girl and that’s number one. Do a ppe for basic soundness and then have her on trial for a month. Decide after then.

[Bluey]

@Riponite

BO selling horse on behalf of owner, but will be contacting owner to negotiate trial and possible sale. BO has no arena (how does she teach?) but has access to one and is prepared to meet me there. with the horse. So in those better circumstances I will hope to see her ridden and watch her canter, and have a much better ride myself. Before, she hadn’t been ridden in a week, ground was terrible and she was very distracted by the young horses in the field. Thank you for so much good advice and I’ll keep you posted.

Sounds like the more comes out, the better off you may be just walking off and keep looking, unless you have a very good trainer helping you, which I think you don’t, or it would have found you a horse under a better situation than that.

That horse, if those stories are right, should be in the trainer’s stable, being ridden and prepared to be sold, not out in a field for months and not fit to be on the market?

Owning a horse is a large investment of money, time, energy and emotional ups and downs.
I would not think this one, as it started and what is coming out, is a very good gamble of all those resources after all.

There is no shame in saying, maybe not the right horse after all, thank you for your time and walking away from this.

[Ruth0552]

I would do a PPE regardless, preferably with an experienced vet that does lameness or chiropractic so you can hopefully at least narrow it down to the body part causing a problem!

You could also offer to free lease the horse to get it off their bank roll to see if she improves with fitness. If she does, then you buy the horse, if not, give it back and it’s up to them to follow through on vet work.

[Magicboy]

I’d try her again in an arena and also see what she does on a lunge line…then a t least a 30 day trial or lease to see what some conditioning can do

[Beck]

I second (Third? Fifth?) the longeing. Check out what she does without a rider.

A good temperament is a big deal and often hard to find when shopping for a horse for beginners. I would not walk away from a temperamentally perfect horse easily.

[Bluey]

@Beck

I second (Third? Fifth?) the longeing. Check out what she does without a rider.

A good temperament is a big deal and often hard to find when shopping for a horse for beginners. I would not walk away from a temperamentally perfect horse easily.

True that.

Even if the horse ends up not being quite what you wanted or doing what you need, if you like the horse and the horse is friendly and happy, you can find some middle ground to enjoy each other.

Even the best fit, if it ends up being a horse you don’t like, well, no one is really happy.

[OneTwoMany]

@CHT

I would go about it differently. If you can try the horse in a better environment and it goes well, I would then vet it. If it does well on the PPE, then do a trial. When people do a trial before the PPE they seem to struggle more with being objective. There is also the risk that the seller could claim the issue on the PPE was caused by the trial (which it might be…if you are really testing the horse and working it harder than it is used to, it may get body sore and/or foot sore by the end of the two weeks.

I might agree with the above if the horse was in work and doing its job, but it isn’t. In this case, if I was given the option, I would do a PPE after the horse was in work for a bit. Time off in a field can cover up a fair number of maladies that regular work will expose. Said another way, you may get more useful information if you are vetting a fit horse versus an unfit horse.

[OverandOnward]

Just something to add to the thousand considerations - Some of us easily become attached to a horse with a genuine temperament, regardless of whether it is really the right choice. I hate leaving one behind to the whims of fate almost more if there is a problem that makes it a harder sell. Could something like that be confusing your choice, OP?

Horse shopping is really tough because it is about real live horses. Shopping for inanimate objects is not a problem for me, I can choose quickly. For me, at least, that is reason enough why I get professional help with horse shopping. Another expense that is cheaper than a big mistake. Someone more objective to say " do not buy that horse, no matter how sweet his eyes are." And save me from waking up a week later thinking what a mistake I made with a purchase. And that I am not the right person to help the horse that is not right for me.

Just wondered about this, OP, since you’ve given more reasons to pass on this horse than to buy it, but you are still interested nonetheless.