Two yellow cards and a verbal warning given at VHT

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=HorsesinHaiti;8689943]
BFNE, would you mind saying what you thought was less than ideal about the location? I value your experience, and I was there as a spectator Saturday and went by warmup.[/QUOTE]

I wasnt there. But good friends were. They said the warm up was in an odd location close to xc (fences 1 and 2) and start. Causing some horses not normally nappy to be nappy and those already prone to be nappy to be especially nappy. Buck’s horse was not the only one.

My issue is the FEI yellow card was given in this context by officials who did not witness the incident. When several others who DID witness it said it wasn’t a yellow card event. I don’t think a rider should be given a yellow card on a nappy or spooking horse when they are trying to stop and retire when it is early on course. I also hate it when they put warm up roped off that close. It is just asking for an accident. If it has to be that close…they should not rope it off.

[EventerAJ]

I saw Be Mine acting up in xc warm-up at Rocking Horse earlier this year. Xc was running nearly an hour behind due to weather and holds on course. Warmup was crowded. Buck was doing an excellent job managing a very difficult horse. Here, too, part of the gallop track ran along side the roped warm-up area and when a horse went galloping past at 550mpm, horses like Buck’s got upset. The finish line also ended directly into warm-up, which also got things stirred up. Be Mine was nappy getting to the start box, but considering the unusual warm-up conditions and that Buck’s probably aren’t used to an hour warm-up (!!) I thought the horse may have had an excuse. Nonetheless, I saw nothing Buck should have done differently; I was impressed with his horsemanship.

[seriously1]

It is very difficult - and expensive - to fight yellow cards. There really is not an appeals process in place. Luckily, the first one isn’t the problem. It is the second that creates a suspension if memory serves me right.

[tarheelmd07]

I hate to see yellow cards given in situations where the rider has obviously realized there is a potentially dangerous situation going on and makes the appropriate choice to quickly pull up a horse - seems they are being punished for making the right decision. I was at an FEI-level event a few years ago where a rider’s horse was nappy in the dressage but made it through the test. The next day on xc, it was obvious after the first few fences that the horse was being even more nappy and the rider pulled up at fence 5. The rider was given a yellow card for the dangerous riding on xc - but it also mentioned dangerous riding in dressage. Still rubs me the wrong way as the rider made the right decision to pull up on xc - and if they wanted to make an issue of dangerous riding in dressage, why did they allow the rider to start on xc? Nothing was said to the rider after the dressage test…

Also seems like there’s a lot of leeway as to what does and does not get you a yellow card (or, dare I say it, who does or does not get one…)

[riderboy]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8690377]
I wasnt there. But good friends were. They said the warm up was in an odd location close to xc (fences 1 and 2) and start. Causing some horses not normally nappy to be nappy and those already prone to be nappy to be especially nappy. Buck’s horse was not the only one.

My issue is the FEI yellow card was given in this context by officials who did not witness the incident. When several others who DID witness it said it wasn’t a yellow card event. I don’t think a rider should be given a yellow card on a nappy or spooking horse when they are trying to stop and retire when it is early on course. I also hate it when they put warm up roped off that close. It is just asking for an accident. If it has to be that close…they should not rope it off.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes I think the people who set up tiny warm-ups with ropes close to start boxes or galloping lanes should be made to ride in them with “the herd”. Ropes are a a necessary evil but they don’t have magical horse repellent properties. I feel for Buck, sounds like he got screwed. I will say the warmups at IEA this weekend, particularly for SJ and XC were great. Roomy, unroped and the XC was not so close to the action.

[mg]

Is Be Mine the same one Buck couldn’t get into the start box at Fair Hill last fall? That horse looks like a handful when he’s decided he doesn’t want to play the game anymore!

[NeverTime]

Looking at the horse’s USEA record, he appears to have quite a few top placings and quite a few letter placings, with not very many in between. Sounds like a tough ride.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=NeverTime;8691352]
Looking at the horse’s USEA record, he appears to have quite a few top placings and quite a few letter placings, with not very many in between. Sounds like a tough ride.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like it might be time for a career change. If a rider like Buck can’t get the horse to perform in varying shades of “safely”, maybe he needs to find a career where the fences aren’t roped and the jumps can tolerate some nappy-ness. I agree with the yellow card, simply as a reminder that behavior like that shouldn’t be tolerated at the upper levels.

[Lord_Helpus]

Seems to me that riders at a certain level should know their horse well enough to cope with their horses’ problems in the warm up area. Riders go by approximately every 2 - 3 minutes. It takes a show hunter less than 2 minutes to canter (very slowly ) an entire course of 8 - 10 jumps. So an event rider should be able to jump 2 - 3 jumps, then circle away from the riding lane while a horse goes by, before jumping more jumps.

If I knew that my horse got upset by horses galloping by, I would do my flat work outside or on the far side of the warm up area and coordinate my jumping before and after a horse goes flying by.

I agree that, if a horse is that difficult in the warm up area, such that an FEI level rider cannot warm up satisfactorily – then the horse is talking to the rider, and it is the rider’s job to listen to “I want another career!” Just because a horse CAN do something, doesn’t mean that a horse wants to do it.

Perhaps the Yellow Card was not issued solely because of the riding on course, but also because of disturbing the warm up area so that other competitors cannot safely prepare their horses?

[Lord_Helpus]

PS: If you want to see tiny warm ups with horses working in both directions circling in front of jumps AND jumping in both directions over fences that are raised and lowered, made from oxers to verticals, etc. then come over to hunterland.

Hunters not only warm up in total chaos, they need to be calm and sane when, 3 minutes later, they walk into the ring.

Point being: a warm up situation should not be an excuse for a horse’s bad behavior.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8691788]
PS: If you want to see tiny warm ups with horses working in both directions circling in front of jumps AND jumping in both directions over fences that are raised and lowered, made from oxers to verticals, etc. then come over to hunterland.

Hunters not only warm up in total chaos, they need to be calm and sane when, 3 minutes later, they walk into the ring.

Point being: a warm up situation should not be an excuse for a horse’s bad behavior.[/QUOTE]

Hunter warm ups are not typically in an open field roped off with rope and spikes to a small space. Then set next to xc with horses galloping by. That’s the primary issue.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8691811]
Hunter warm ups are not typically in an open field roped off with rope and spikes to a small space. Then set next to xc with horses galloping bye. That’s the primary issue.[/QUOTE]

Plus eventers are not typically lunged to death or drugged beforehand so it’s a bit different.

[goodmorning]

Long story short - theres more than meets the eye here.

If this is the horse I saw have a meltdown at Millbrook (only other horse would’ve been Park Trader), I have no problem with the card. Horse nearly took out on lookers, competitors, cars, etc. There were no ropes involved, Buck didn’t even have to be riding it there, no excuse for its antics & then Buck galloped it across the street, up the hill, and to warm up. I was not pleased. I chalked it up to one really rotten horse. If it’s happened on multiple occasions then yes, it’s dangerous, figure out its program to get it to the ring, or risk getting cards or warnings, or find it a new job. Plenty of rotten nappy violent horses have managed to compete over the years in all disciples semi-card free, but as a rider/trainer/owner it is a risk - a liability for all involved - you take with that sort of horse.

[iberianfan]

I can speak to Caroline Sullivan. She had NO refusals, so I’m not sure why it says that. She circled her horse on a downhill towards a keyhole as he does get strong and going downhill just exacerbated that. She ended up XC with 4 time faults.
None of us thought it was dangerous and thought maybe the officials were being overly cautious after Jersey Fresh.

[goodmorning]

Caroline’s was the more concerning because as mentioned, how can you evaulate stats if they are inaccurate. It sounds like maybe it should ha e been a DR for going too fast? I hope the FEI fixes that,

I’m not sure you can be ‘overly cautious’ as an official. I think if something is borderline then they have to call it, and if they don’t and someone or a horse dies? I would never want to live with that. Glad hey are erring on the side of caution, as is it seems Caroline was as well :yes:

[canuckeventer]

I’m always amazed how people on these chats are able to make assumptions and comparisons about a situation(s) when they weren’t even there to witness the event. You’ve read the “chatter” and now you can assume what happened! And we all know what they say about “assume” - it “makes an ass out of you and me”!

If you were not there and you didn’t witness the warm-up - was a less than ideal situation and the majority of riders in the warm-up area, at that time, were professionals ( all of this, according to eye-witness observations) - then how can you start comparing this to how hunters go and how much better they are?

Go figure, because I can’t!

[PAF]

From Eventing Nation September 22, 2014

"Owned by Lisa Darden, she purchased Be Mine as a 3-year-old dressage prospect, who quickly showed he had no interest in being a dressage horse. “He’s basically quiet until he’s not, and then hang on, because he’s going to buck, and he’s going to spin, and he’s going to have a good time,” Buck said.

Lisa sent the horse to Buck to evaluate, and after they unsuccessfully tried to sell him, Be Mine did his first Novice in January. He’s flown through the levels since, winning the Bromont CCI* in June and now winning the Plantation Field CIC2* — definitely a quick progression through the levels, and Buck said he’s well aware of that fact.

“This whole weekend has been about trying to do the right thing,” Buck said. “I think mentally the reason he’s here is because he’s a bit of a bastard. He needs to be challenged, and he’s good enough.” Be Mine’s owner, Lisa Darden, fully supported the decision to move him up to the two-star level at Plantation Field.

Buck said he couldn’t think of another horse he’s ever had that moved up the levels so quickly and with such a high success rate. “I will pull the reins back eventually and not keep pushing; we’ll leave him at Intermediate for a bit,” Buck said."

[redalter]

The warm ups can be very very chaotic.

Lots of horses have a very hard time managing in the warm up, but it really doesn’t translate when they get in the ring.

Because a horse does not like other horses galloping up behind him, or lots of horses careening around a busy warm up - doesn’t necessarily mean he doesn’t like his job.

[SonnysMom]

I wonder if it would be safer for at least the warm up area to have the plastic chain instead of the rope. I know it would be more expensive and not practical for the galloping lanes.
It may make sense for areas where there is a galloping lane on one side and warm up on the the other. This way in the areas that have a greater chance of the boundary being challenged it is the “chain”. I would think the chain would break, be less likely to wrap around the horse and not leave rope burns.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=SonnysMom;8693037]
I wonder if it would be safer for at least the warm up area to have the plastic chain instead of the rope. I know it would be more expensive and not practical for the galloping lanes.
It may make sense for areas where there is a galloping lane on one side and warm up on the the other. This way in the areas that have a greater chance of the boundary being challenged it is the “chain”. I would think the chain would break, be less likely to wrap around the horse and not leave rope burns.[/QUOTE]

My thought was why not have just spaced portable gates or other barriers (like std saw horses). The point is just to mark the area…not really keep horses in but just to give people a heads up don’t cross. That why if a horse gets loose, they still get through without getting tangled. I get the need for roping lanes when there are a ton of spectators but that is not the case at a majority of US events.