Two yellow cards and a verbal warning given at VHT

[JP60]

I would agree that without being an eye witness, not having a factual accounting of the incident we are all whistling our own tune. However, this caught my eye

Be Mine did his first Novice in January. He’s flown through the levels since, winning the Bromont CCI* in June and now winning the Plantation Field CIC2*

It made me rethink a little my original thought that may have been aligned with BFNE. What does dangerous Riding mean? We all tend to jump on the most straightforward definition and apply it to actually performing DR on course; to fast, to wild, out of control. I feel that the officials may have a more nuanced definition that extends to something less tangible, but just as important, judgement.

Even from the anecdotal statements, what we have is a horse that is barely controllable. Nappy is such a cute word to hide the less Walt Disney version of almost out of control. When a 1000+ lb animal loses it there is little to be done till it either stops or gets injured so having a horse known to be “nappy” should amp up the judgement factor.

In reading the segment of article posted above, this horse was shoved through the levels, rammed through given he went from Novice to CCI** in one year. What the hell! Please spare me the “he could handle it” rationals, because frankly, the only way he seemed to “handle it” was by having a top Jockey push him through. The yous and I’s would have had fantastic failure making that attempt. Seriously, we look at MJ, call him a God amongst mortals, but does he ever attempt to run a horse up that fast, just because “it can?”

What did that do to his horsey brain? When did he have a break? Where was the judgement in giving this horse a break or bringing him back down sooner so maybe his brain is not fried. Nappy in warmup…makes it sound like he was sleepy, not almost out of control and effecting the horses around him. My horse could give two shakes about a galloping horse going by on course, but he hates when some fried, tense, barely in control horse freaks out in warm up.

So my take, the FEI investigated the moment, understood that the horse was already on the edge in warmup, Buck choose to push him out the start box and over a fence disregarding the fact the horse was not in any sense reasonably controllable and by the time he retired had made a bad situation worse.

I’d say it was a correct call and perhaps indicates to riders that DR is not just out of control halfway down the course, it starts at the beginning as well. It starts with good judgement.

I’d add my voice to those who’ve already stated that if Buck can get a valid YC for bad judgement at the startbox, why the hell does ML not get one for as bad a judgement call. That horse needed to be pulled up at fence 5 or 6 or more so, not have been taken on course, given how bad a shape it was in. She endangered the life of that horse by pushing it past its capability, just as Buck pushed a horse past its capability to handle a little chaos.

What they are doing to these horses is getting to be just sad. I’m past anger at this point.

[Saskatoonian]

Oh for god’s sake, that article was from 2014.

[Xctrygirl]

[QUOTE=mg;8691105]
Is Be Mine the same one Buck couldn’t get into the start box at Fair Hill last fall? That horse looks like a handful when he’s decided he doesn’t want to play the game anymore![/QUOTE]

I just remembered this incident this morning. I was at the start last year and they spent almost 3-4 minutes trying to get this horse in the box. It wouldn’t go. Like PERIOD, no go. No way thank you Bob.

Nappy is one description but I would likely describe that scene as flat disagreement on goals for the day. But I never saw Buck do anything awful. The horse was a prick. Plain and simple.

Emily

[sascha]

[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8693203]
. The horse was a prick. Plain and simple.

Emily[/QUOTE]

I have no knowledge of any of these incidents, but this makes me wonder what we all might say to a poster that came on CoTH and described similar incidents. What would we say? That’s rhetorical. I’m not looking for actual answers, just to get folks thinking about it from a different angle.

[JP60]

I see, so because that was done two years ago it is okay to shove a horse up the levels so fast? What’s your point, because mine was that in doing this, it may have had the potential to have a negative impact on the horse that still affects it today. At 8 years old, it went from a dressage horse to being told to jump close to 4’, and somehow, you think that is just fine.

What happened to welfare of the horse here? In 2014 that horse ran 15 events starting N in Jan, reaching 2** in Sept and still doing two more after that? Can you seriously defend working a horse that hard, pushing him up so fast and say it’s a good thing?

10 in 2015 and most of them at 2 or 3 star level.

6 already in 2016 and some run back to back weeks.

None below Prelim since 2014 though there were a few RF, R, and E.

So yes, boo hoo that article was back in 2014 and we can already see that this piece of horse flesh is going to damn well earn its keep, or so it seems :mad:

Inside a 2 month span Be Mine ran three 3*, two week then three week spread ending in a rider fall. Everything I’ve read from competent Trainers indicates that the higher you go, the more time should be given to rest both the mind and body of the horse. Hauling is grueling and stressful, staying in show stalls is stressful, then having to go out and run UL courses that tax the horse…It seems more clear to me why this horse was wired to blow, they primed the fuse in 2014 and watched it blow in 2016.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=sascha;8693214]
I have no knowledge of any of these incidents, but this makes me wonder what we all might say to a poster that came on CoTH and described similar incidents. What would we say? That’s rhetorical. I’m not looking for actual answers, just to get folks thinking about it from a different angle.[/QUOTE]

To rule out pain first (which knowing Buck and his connections they probably do and have), then to address training and management (feed/supplements). Some horses are just like this…and at some point, you have to decide if it is worth continuing to put up with it or not. It’s a hard balance sometimes.

I had a mare that was like this for dressage…VERY difficult. Ruled out everything, tried everything. Sold her to a much better rider…same issues. In the end, she became a jumper. She luckily had talent and luckily wasn’t bad on the ground…but try and do a 20 meter circle somewhat on the bit…or rate her at a fence smaller than 4’…not so much fun.

[Xctrygirl]

[QUOTE=sascha;8693214]
I have no knowledge of any of these incidents, but this makes me wonder what we all might say to a poster that came on CoTH and described similar incidents. What would we say? That’s rhetorical. I’m not looking for actual answers, just to get folks thinking about it from a different angle.[/QUOTE]

A description of an “incident” is far more difficult to pass judgement/ thought on than a situation where I was a bystander within 10 feet. Where I watched no less that 5 people trying to get a horse to go forward. waving arms, ropes, blankets behind the horse in an effort to help it get to the start box. The horse’s reaction to all of this was a very large middle finger.

HENCE my thoughts on this individual horse’s actions at Fair Hill only.

IF I was a bystander for an incident that a COTH member then queried about, then I would address what I had seen. But nothing more.

I didn’t see what happened at VHT. But I did see what happened at Fair Hill. It’s not hard to think that my thoughts on the horse’s personality last fall would not change in light of the eyewitness reports from VHT.

~Emily

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8693203]

The horse was a prick. Plain and simple.

Emily[/QUOTE]
I see. Somehow Be Mine woke up that day and said to itself, “I think I’m going to be a prick today” as if it were, i dunno, human or something.

Perhaps it might have been the horse saying “I really don’t want to do this, because I’m nervous or scared or fried”. By Fair Hill it had run 8 events that year, but for one, all above Prelim. It had just completed two three stars inside two months going from area 1, to area 8, to area 3.

And you say the horse was a prick? You know who the prick was, the human that decided this horse didn’t need any down time. The prick was the human the decided that horse will get into that starting box and I don’t care about the protest. Whether or not Bruce did something awful, the idea of working a horse that hard for that long indicates a lack of judgement on the long term care of this horse or pressures beyond his control that push him and this horse to compete so much.

Just to compare, take a top horse like AP, trained to run at the Derby. I didn’t see him shoved into a claimer or stakes race the next week. Nor the same after the Belmont or Preakness. Yet here we have a pushed to a 3* level horse asked to do it not once within two months, but three F’ing times, in three different parts of the country…

And you called the horse a prick?

[fordtraktor]

Good grief.

That warmup setup sounds like a nightmare. I am sure it would make my sweet little OTTB blow his top.

I used to ride in a GP barn and we had quite a few nice upper level horses who were difficult rides in the warmup. it didn’t mean they were unfit for their jobs, it meant they knew their jobs were coming up and they were hot to handle in the meantime. It’s not abnormal and IMO not all that dangerous.

You work to figure out a system to get them in the ring with as little drama as possible. Here, it sounds like the rope thing was an accident that made a little nappiness a lot worse than it should have been.

It’s hard, the yellow card thing. The people I seem to think are terrifying, the ones who come in to fences on the forehand over and over, no one seems to give a second look. Then they yellow card something like this…I don’t know. It just seems like they are looking in the wrong places for what’s actually dangerous.

[fordtraktor]

Oh, and it sounds like the horse may not have actually run all those events. it sounds like he might not have gone out of the start box on a few of them. It also sounds like he’s been “a prick” since he was 3 from that article, which is how he ended up at Buck’s instead of in his intended dressage career to start with.

Not a horse I would much relish in my barn, from the sounds of it, but sounds like he’s got talent so at least he’s in a good situation. If a horse like that happened to be some ugly grade horse with no talent he might have it a LOT worse off so I’m not even going to think about blaming his people for anything. He could have ended up in Mexico by now so which is worse, running a few times more than COTHers would like or…? A horse with problems like that with a rider like Buck up, well, it’s not an easy horse. That horse is darn lucky to be where he is.

I am sure some of you think you could do it better and there’s nothing stopping you from thinking that in your Internet dream world.

[HeyJealousy]

When I was a working student we had a horse who acted very similar to what it sounds like Be Mine was doing…he was a nervous wreck at certain venues (Fair Hill and the Fork were the worst), he would clear out the warm up and then a group of people would have to literally get behind him and chase him into the start box. Every single event was anyone’s guess as to whether he’d actually go in. Sometimes he would start a full three or four minutes after the timer started. He was a talented horse and fully capable of the 3* level and beyond, but his brain was fried (from being rushed up the levels by his former rider) and he ended up going on to another career. He is a happy horse now, no behavior issues to speak of, a far cry from the rearing/plunging horse he became when it was time to go XC.

If my boss had been yellow carded for those antics I’m sure I would’ve jumped to his defense immediately, but looking at things objectively…maybe it should have been done.

[Calling_Duck]

Question: What is “nappy”?

[Highflyer]

Eight events between February and October is in no way excessive or unusual, even at the ULs. (And it’s certainly not more difficult than AP’s 2015 year-- which also included a lot of travelling). That said, this horse’s record isn’t particularly confidence inspiring and it may well be this isn’t the job for him-- sounds like his old job wasn’t, either.

But to me DR penalties/ yellow cards should be applied for significant rider error on the day of the competition, and it doesn’t sound like this was the case.

[Sticky_Situation]

It seems to me that what a lot of us are frustrated about isn’t so much the fact that Buck received a yellow card for this situation … Rather it’s because this case, in which an apparently difficult horse had a meltdown and then the rider subsequently retired, was felt to merit a yellow card, but in other cases where riders pressed on with clearly exhausted horses to the point that they fell, no yellow cards were given.

I don’t see this as some big conspiracy theory where specific riders are targeted while others are immune from any repercussions of their actions … I think it’s more likely due to having different officials in different places who are responsible for any yellow cards or warnings that are given out. But it’s still frustrating when something like this, or Mary King when she retired with that young horse after it had some green moments, is given a yellow card while worse and IMO more dangerous cases of poor judgment are ignored.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8693293]
Oh, and it sounds like the horse may not have actually run all those events. it sounds like he might not have gone out of the start box on a few of them. It also sounds like he’s been “a prick” since he was 3 from that article, which is how he ended up at Buck’s instead of in his intended dressage career to start with.

Not a horse I would much relish in my barn, from the sounds of it, but sounds like he’s got talent so at least he’s in a good situation. If a horse like that happened to be some ugly grade horse with no talent he might have it a LOT worse off so I’m not even going to think about blaming his people for anything. He could have ended up in Mexico by now so which is worse, running a few times more than COTHers would like or…? A horse with problems like that with a rider like Buck up, well, it’s not an easy horse. That horse is darn lucky to be where he is.

I am sure some of you think you could do it better and there’s nothing stopping you from thinking that in your Internet dream world.[/QUOTE]
I’m guessing you think some horses are born to be pricks…humans have nothing to do with it?

Clearly all of this is the horses fault. Can’t handle dressage, because it’s a prick so I’ve got an idea, let’s shove it into the Eventing machine to see if that fixes the problem. Let’s put a Rock Star like Bruce on it so it “does its job” like a good horse should. yet the problem is not solved. It still have issues and instead of working to perhaps figure out why it has this type of behavior we just keep shoving back into the machine.

You give this horse a choice, work to live or get sent to the factory in Mexico. You are one cold person. I make no presumption I could “do better” with this one horse, but I read, I listen, I watch, and when I put that knowledge together I get a picture of a set of people looking at this horse in a negative way (“He’s a prick”), never considering that there may be a mental aspect to this horses action and addressing that forward.

Tell me oh wise one, what happens to this fried, used up horse in two more years? Who after Bruce will have the ability to ride this Prick? It is only 10, considered to be a problem horse in a very public way, difficult to ride, no consistency in competition…so what did those esteemed care givers do, but prolong the moment when that horse gets put on a train heading south. If not them, the next sucker that thinks they can get some of that talent working for them.

My internet dream world would have that horse taken out of competition for a year, doing nothing but hacks and small workouts then slowly, small steps attempt to bring it back into the sport so it can take time to absorb what we are asking it do to. After that, if his brain is too shot then the effort is made to try him in something with less stress, be it jumpers for fun, endurance, or just trail ride/hunter pace.

The reality will see this horse spit out in two to three years when his “talent” is no longer needed.

[HeyJealousy]

I will say that after watching a few videos of Be Mine on YouTube, he seems like a happy and extremely talented horse. I’ve never seen him go in person obviously, but he seems to be going around ears pricked in the videos I watched.

[Ghazzu]

Or
[I]. The horse was a prick. Plain and simple.

Emily[/I]

[QUOTE=sascha;8693214]
I have no knowledge of any of these incidents, but this makes me wonder what we all might say to a poster that came on CoTH and described similar incidents. What would we say? That’s rhetorical. I’m not looking for actual answers, just to get folks thinking about it from a different angle.[/QUOTE]

I suspect there would be no fewer than a dozen people certain that ulcers were the problem…

[Xctrygirl]

[QUOTE=JP60;8693256]
I see. Somehow Be Mine woke up that day and said to itself, “I think I’m going to be a prick today” as if it were, i dunno, human or something. And you called the horse a prick?[/QUOTE]

Would it be better if I called him a “jerk” or a “butthead”?

The horse who I’m sure in his horsey way of thinking didn’t want to play that day just didn’t play. IF it was cold planting feet and refusing to move, maybe I would be more lenient. But the horse behaved poorly around people only going so far as trying to move him forward without touching him. What the horse did was to resist and occasionally rear and kick out.

I am not suggesting there were not issues with the horse. I am only stating that it was 1) not going forward and 2) was acting out against the humans asking it to go forward.

Now, if this was out of character I would expect that Brendan (Furlong, Buck’s vet) would have been called to look it over post haste someday after Monday.

I have seen PLENTY of horses not want to do something. I have ridden horses with the same ideas. Some were health related and some just didn’t want to do what was asked.

Having looked up Be Mine’s schedule before Fair Hill I would hardly say this horse wasn’t given a break. He did Richland, where he retired on August 20th. He came back a month later at Plantation CIC*** on Sept 16th and finished 39th. Then he did Fair Hill a month after that. This is not a bad schedule. It’s consistent with what stake horses run in racing. Roughly once a month or so.

They didn’t compete at all between October and February. He made use of the Florida circuit but have we noticed that while he did run back 6 days once this was at the Prelim level. Buck has clearly changed things up to try to address/help the horse’s situation. He got a 6 week competition break after Florida.

You can MM quarterback this as much as you want, but maybe he was on that schedule for reasons that cannot be gleaned from internet stalkers. The horse does have an owner that is not it’s rider. They could have made requests on the schedule also.

Emily

[Xctrygirl]

[QUOTE=Calling Duck;8693326]
Question: What is “nappy”?[/QUOTE]

Difficult, resistant, acting out a bit against directions.

More humans can be nappy than horses some days. This would be one of those.

Emily

[JAM]

[QUOTE=NCRider;8691831]
Plus eventers are not typically lunged to death or drugged beforehand so it’s a bit different.[/QUOTE]

Eventers are the last ones who should be throwing stones these days. (And, yes, I am an eventer, not a hunter.)