Two yellow cards and a verbal warning given at VHT

[JP60]

@GotSpots;8694289

Sigh. Far be it from me to let the facts get in the way of your rant, but a couple of corrections to your assumptions.

Man, I love your condescending attitude. It fits so well with the current trend of who gives a [crap] about horses.

So good, you school me on competition horses. I went back to one of my favorites, an actual hall of fame horse, Courageous Comet, Now we have no question this was a 4* horse

Rolex
WEG
Burghley

So in 2010, he ran in 7 events, won the AEC Championships yet had 4 months off before WEG after winning at the AECs at Advanced.

2009 a total of 8 events
2008 a total of 7 events

Amazingly, Becky ran Comet less, did not push at the highest levels all the time and it turns out that horse was a champion.

Somehow you are trying to say that Be Mine, who only started Eventing two years ago and is now having to compete at a 3* level is somehow better able then a 4* horse that ran less events over more years and was more stable, fit, an mentally ready to perform?

As to your fitness point, Sinead and Allison had not competed in over three months leading up to the Olympics and Burghley, yet somehow were “fit” enough to compete at the highest level, and do well.

Let us ask MJ, no most EU trainer/riders how they feel about ramming a horse up levels, not giving them time to adapt, accepting the rising level of stress that comes with that pressure. How about we put more hardware in the mouth, that will fix it.

This horse had an issue and nobody actually addressed it. Some[one] challenged me to take on that horse and my answer would fine…I will. I’d be happy, with all my supposed lack of experience take in this horse and see if I can help him learn that warm up is not so scary, that the start box is not scary, humans are not so uncaring, but if I did that, then I get to keep the horse.

To put this back on topic, Bruce deserved the YC, that horse needs a break, because contrary to xcrtygirl, pounding a horse into submission is not a great long term solution to understanding why it is reacting negatively to a situation. Testing the limits of its fear, its stress, and taking time to fixing those issues might make it a good horse again.

[Xctrygirl]

[QUOTE=JP60;8694562]

To put this back on topic, Bruce deserved the YC, that horse needs a break, because contrary to xcrtygirl, pounding a horse into submission is not a great long term solution to understanding why it is reacting negatively to a situation. Testing the limits of its fear, its stress, and taking time to fixing those issues might make it a good horse again.[/QUOTE]

Reading comprehension is so important and you missed it.

1. His father is Bruce, we all know him as Buck. Fir those of us who know both of them I would never call Buck, Bruce. Given name or not he’s Buck

2. Show me where I was a proponent of “pounding a horse into submission”?

3. The bottom line is that this isn’t your horse to fix. Hypothetically or otherwise. Buck is a bit more under a microscope than the bulk of the members of this board. If the roles were reversed and a slew of riders were yammering on about how to “fix” a horse that you’re working hard to figure out, well I seriously doubt you’d appreciate that level of "help. "

Emily

[sascha]

[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8694743]

3. The bottom line is that this isn’t your horse to fix. Hypothetically or otherwise.
   Emily[/QUOTE]

This might be the funniest thing on this thread. Let it be known to all the people in all the lands that Xctrygirl has claimed ownership of all things hypothetical and there shall be no further musings, speculations, nor comments that may, or may not, be deemed hypothetical. Because gawd forbid we should think about how we might handle such a case, nor wonder if someone else is handling the case appropriately.

Hee.

[FLeventer]

As of this morning Be Mine is still entered in the CCI3* at Bromont.

No dog in this fight but as a rider who had a horse who would clear warmup and would act like a damn bronco and then be totally fine in tne ring, it happens. Some horses are just built that way. But yeah Im sure Buck reads COTH for everyones advice. That was sarcasm for those [who don’t] get it.

[sascha]

[QUOTE=FLeventer;8695058]
But yeah Im sure Buck reads COTH for everyones advice. That was sarcasm for those [who didn’t] get it.[/QUOTE]

And some, I guess, [don’t get] that people can actually discuss, dare I say, HYPOTHETICALLY, what they might do in a similar situation with a similar horse. Why is it so hard to get that no-one here is (yet) trying to shove their opinion down Buck’s throat, but that they are discussing a situation? People can even have opinions on whether they think the guy and the owner are doing right by the horse or not without influencing either of them, or the horse! Who knew?!

[PaintedHunter]

I don’t know nothin’ ‘bout nothin’.

But I do have a horse who can be Draft Hot in the sense that he would do slow-mo runaways or tune me out to the point of not turning in public. Not all the time, but intermittently.

The answer was not to take him to fewer shows or to take him down a notch in terms of level (that would be hard to do!) but to take him out more. He’s now better.

And there’s nothing physically wrong with him, and he actually LOVES XC and jumping in general. He’s just a recreational button pusher. Every horse is different.

[Mia_Sorella]

I don’t have much of an opinion on this, not having witnessed the horse in question.

But out of curiousity, to the posters who are defending this horse’s program and excusing his behaviour as just being nappy:

What would this horse have to do for you to decide that it just doesn’t want to play any more?

[Littleluck55]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/two-yellow-cards-handed-out-virginia-horse-trials

From the article:

Davidson explained a series of incidents that led to his infraction. He headed out on cross-country on the 10-year-old Rheinlander gelding (La Bonita—Landadel) owned by Lisa Darden, and he was startled to come upon Lainey Ashker’s Calling All Comets galloping at him without a rider.

Ashker had fallen off, and Calling All Comets ran back toward the warm-up area.

“All of a sudden Lainey’s horse was coming head on at me, so I had to try to get out of the way quick,” Davidson said. " ‘Bemine’ has a little bit of a nappy tendency, so I had to grab the reins since [the other horse] had just come over the crest of the hill and didn’t see him coming. At that point I basically stopped him, then he spun around and followed the horse. I tried to get going, and as I went to get going, apparently they told me he ran through the ropes. Bemine kicked and got the rope caught in his shoe. He pulled the ropes down, and as I went to get going, another horse came flying out of the woods towards me."

In the chaos of trying to calm the gelding down, former Olympian Jill Henneberg, who happened to be standing near the ropes, got tangled up and received some rope burn.

Once Bemine (which is pronounced like Bimini) was calm and untangled, Davidson jumped a few fences and retired after he’d gotten away from the start area.

“I got the yellow card because I pulled the ropes down,” said Davidson. "I asked what I should do in the future, and they said, ‘We thought you did a good job.’ I never hit the horse. I patted him to try and calm him down. I guess the rules are that I would have been better off to jump off, which would have endangered my horse and more people because at that point he was freaked out. I feel like the best place to control a horse is on it, and they completely agreed, but they’re sort of bound by the rules.

“Jill Henneberg was there and wrote a letter to the FEI, and she was the one who got rope burn behind her leg,” he continued. “She thought I’d done everything in my power to control the situation and make the situation as good as possible and that I didn’t deserve a yellow card for it. It’s just one of those things. He’s a bit fractious. We’ve been working [on it] all year. He had been really good, and he went out of the start box no problem.”

Davidson said he’s only received one other yellow card in his career. In 2011 when he was competing his Pan American Games mount Absolute Liberty at Richland Park (Mich.), he was jumped loose after a skinny out of water and steered her away from the crowd but ended up jumping the ropes.

“If you see me going towards the ropes now I’m going to jump off! Everybody watch out,” he said with a laugh.

[axl]

Nothing constructive to add but: This much snark and nastiness does not belong on the Eventing forum. You’re the NICE GUYS! Now get your boxes of wine and go sit in your respective corners for a few minutes!

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

Thanks, Littleluck55 - in addition to Buck’s description of the incident, I am happy to have learned that Be Mine is pronounced Bimini!

[fordtraktor]

Mia Sorella – I personally give Buck the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is working on the issues and has a plan. I don’t know what the horse’s program is, as I am not privy to the horse’s training plan so how can I judge it? neither can you. horses I have known with similar issues did not exhibit them at all at home, so I can see why getting it out and about often would be part of that. I am not going to get all judgey about it not being fixed fast either because things take time, with horses, as anyone who has actually had a difficult one would know.

those of you who want to give up on this horse’s career immediately now, why? why not give it a chance in the hands of competent professionals? From the descriptions it sounds like once it gets out on course it is fine so it does not sound like the horse doesn’t want to play at all. it sounds like a training issue that can maybe be fixed with time and exposure.

You don’t give up on nice horses without at least trying to work them through the problem, whatever it is. From my perspective, retiring the thing for the next 20 years seems expensive compared to another couple of shows hoping it comes around and can be useful for a good portion of that.

[gardenie]

“h)Endangering the public in any way (e.g. jumping out of the roped track).”

So I’ve been reading the FEI rule 525 Dangerous Riding, and the above is the applicable portion.

[Backstage]

@JP60;8694562

So good, you school me on competition horses. I went back to one of my favorites, an actual hall of fame horse, Courageous Comet, Now we have no question this was a 4* horse

Rolex
WEG
Burghley

So in 2010, he ran in 7 events, won the AEC Championships yet had 4 months off before WEG after winning at the AECs at Advanced.

2009 a total of 8 events
2008 a total of 7 events

Amazingly, Becky ran Comet less, did not push at the highest levels all the time and it turns out that horse was a champion.

Somehow you are trying to say that Be Mine, who only started Eventing two years ago and is now having to compete at a 3* level is somehow better able then a 4* horse that ran less events over more years and was more stable, fit, an mentally ready to perform?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think its important to recognize (1) that different horses may need to be managed differently and (2) that horses established at the 4* level often need fewer runs than ones that are still learning the game. I don’t think it is productive to compare Comet’s competition schedule at the apex of his career, to another horse who is relatively green at the upper levels.

This horse had an issue and nobody actually addressed it. Some dimbulb challenged me to take on that horse and my answer would fine…I will. I’d be happy, with all my supposed lack of experience take in this horse and see if I can help him learn that warm up is not so scary, that the start box is not scary, humans are not so uncaring, but if I did that, then I get to keep the horse.

To put this back on topic, Bruce deserved the YC, that horse needs a break, because contrary to xcrtygirl, pounding a horse into submission is not a great long term solution to understanding why it is reacting negatively to a situation. Testing the limits of its fear, its stress, and taking time to fixing those issues might make it a good horse again.

I think we need to keep things in perspective. We don’t actually know the extent and scope of the issue. We have, on this thread, a couple of anecdotal stories about the horse’s behaviour. This is a discussion board, so inevitably things like this will be discussed and I don’t, personally, think that’s a problem. But in the context of those discussions, we need to keep in mind that we have very little visibility as to the nature of the issues, and what has/hasn’t been done. Or whether the issue is improving. For instance, the COTH article that came out today gives, IMO, a different perspective to the events that led to the yellow card. Its not surprising that a fit, ready to run event horse may have difficulty coping in those circumstances.

I also don’t know if its fair to suggest that no one is addressing the problem. First of all, we don’t actually know what is or isn’t being done. Secondly, his record suggests that the horse’s management have taken a step back. http://useventing.com/competitions/profile-horse?horse_id=154990

The horse has a very good record until he stepped up to the Advanced/3* level in 2015. Following a couple of refusals/Rs, he was stepped down to the Intermediate/2* level, where he was previously very successful.

Bottom line, while we can speculate about what we might do with that sort of issue, I don’t think its terribly productive to try and second guess every move when we don’t have all the facts.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Again…ridiculous that he got a yellow card in that situation.

And I will again state my HATERED of ropes. They are not safe barricades…especially not around a warm up.

[ACMEeventing]

I’m editing my post because, upon review, my accusations of people being condescending was . . . well . . . condescending.

I’m going to go drink a beer now. Carry on

[fordtraktor]

when JP60 stops with the personal insults and namecalling perhaps the rest of us will respect his position more. If you come out with guns blazing, you can’t expect to get offered a plate of teacakes.

[EventingJ]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/two-yellow-cards-handed-out-virginia-horse-trials

okay railbirds. Please enlighten us on how you would keep a horse calm and not panicked when a loose horse is running full steam at you. Perhaps had he stayed at Novice for several years he would learn not to panic in this situation? Maybe slowly moving up the levels would have given him less of a startle and would not have gotten caught up in ropes when on cross country he met a riderless horse galloping towards him?

please, let us know your training tips and techniques.

[asterix]

I haven’t wanted to wade in here as there are a lot of meta-subjects floating around. I did know a horse who was a pill to get into the box (not dangerous, just so excited he couldn’t focus). That horse happily carted an amateur around his first intermediate and was both a gem and very well loved in his golden years. He wasn’t ill treated and he loved his job.
In that case, since i knew the whole story, including not just his owner but his two previous riders, I would have been on here defending them. Certainly goes to show how context matters.
To me that is separate from the very real issue of pushing a horse up the levels, of treating horses like commodities, or of fair/unfair/biased treatment of either certain pros or pros vs ammies.
I will only say that, had a horse come flying back at me on XC like that, I am QUITE sure my otherwise rideable beastie would have wigged out and I have no confidence that I would have been able to avoid the ropes in that situation.

[HeyJealousy]

[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;8695500]
I have to say I’m really disgusted by all the shots being fired in this thread. No one owns the rights to COTH opinion.

JP60, who by his own admission, leans way over the aisle when it comes to horse welfare and building a partnership, has stated several really valid arguments regarding the career of ‘X’ horse. It WAS a rapid rise up the levels and if it had been ML we would probably be pouncing all over her. There were some discrepancies in the facts, but the overall sentiment deserved its voice.

XCountrygirl, your experience with horses is well documents on these forums. But the condescending tone towards posts that don’t agree with yours? Holy moly. Who cares that he used the wrong name. His point could have been applied to Turd Ferguson and it would have been the same glass of water.

When did we stop being able to use our big words and play Sandbox 101? As far as the yellow card, I have stopped trying to understand the distribution. The system is a travesty.

Gah, I’m gonna go ride my horses now.[/QUOTE]
Best post of this thread.

[seabreeze]

[QUOTE=axl;8695373]
Nothing constructive to add but: This much snark and nastiness does not belong on the Eventing forum. You’re the NICE GUYS! Now get your boxes of wine and go sit in your respective corners for a few minutes![/QUOTE]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I am completely new to the eventing world, and I have admired the camaraderie amongst its competitors and spectators. And now…this.

:(:(