Two yellow cards and a verbal warning given at VHT

[kcmel]

[QUOTE=EventingJ;8695541]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/two-yellow-cards-handed-out-virginia-horse-trials

okay railbirds. Please enlighten us on how you would keep a horse calm and not panicked when a loose horse is running full steam at you. Perhaps had he stayed at Novice for several years he would learn not to panic in this situation? Maybe slowly moving up the levels would have given him less of a startle and would not have gotten caught up in ropes when on cross country he met a riderless horse galloping towards him?

please, let us know your training tips and techniques.[/QUOTE]

Funny, it just happened to me. I was walking back from xc down the steep hill at Plantation, with my feet out of the stirrups, and a loose horse came barreling down the hill. My usually sensible draft cross started dancing around, and I wasn’t sure I was going to get my feet back in the stirrups before he dumped me. But he calmed down and I continued on my merry way. Glad I wasn’t on my 5 YO!

But I am glad to hear Buck’s explanation, and it does sound like it was an undeserved yellow card.

However, I will boldly state in my OPINION, which as a LL rider I will brazenly express, based on my knowledge of horses in general and admittedly having no direct experience in bringing along an upper level horse, going from novice to a 2* in 9 months is too fast. That rapid advancement could well have led to a fried brain, especially in a horse already known to have behavioral problems. Were I the owner, I hope I would have had the courage to tell Buck to slow it down.

But then, my 5 YO still hasn’t gone BN…

[pegasusmom]

Just a thought regarding pushing this horse up the levels, given that this is a ten year old gelding, what are the chances this horse was imported from Europe and competed there. As far as I know there are still requirements regarding qualifying to move up a Level in this country and one novice , followed by one training prior to moving to preliminary ain’t it. Heading back to the cheap seats with my popcorn and beer.

[GotSpots]

[QUOTE=JP60;8694562]
Man, I love your condescending attitude. It fits so well with the current trend of who gives a [crap] about horses.

---

As to your fitness point, Sinead and Allison had not competed in over three months leading up to the Olympics and Burghley, yet somehow were “fit” enough to compete at the highest level, and do well.
[/QUOTE] It’s not condescending to correct the facts. Luckily, there are readily available records we can check:

It is simply not correct to say that Sinead and Allison did not compete in “over three months” leading up to the Olympics and Burghley. In 2012, Allison and Arthur started the season at Pine Top Advanced on February 24, completed Red Hills CIC***, entered Southern Pines Advanced and withdrew after dressage, completed The Fork, and completed Rolex CCI****. Then, she entered Bromont CIC*** in Canada and withdrew after dressage. Three weeks later, now in England, she completed the Barbury Castle CIC***, then the Hartpury CIC***, and then Burghley CCI**** on August 30. So, nine events Advanced or FEI events, over two continents and three countries, within six months and a week.

[Mia_Sorella]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8695433]
Mia Sorella – I personally give Buck the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is working on the issues and has a plan. I don’t know what the horse’s program is, as I am not privy to the horse’s training plan so how can I judge it? neither can you. horses I have known with similar issues did not exhibit them at all at home, so I can see why getting it out and about often would be part of that. I am not going to get all judgey about it not being fixed fast either because things take time, with horses, as anyone who has actually had a difficult one would know.

those of you who want to give up on this horse’s career immediately now, why? why not give it a chance in the hands of competent professionals? From the descriptions it sounds like once it gets out on course it is fine so it does not sound like the horse doesn’t want to play at all. it sounds like a training issue that can maybe be fixed with time and exposure.

You don’t give up on nice horses without at least trying to work them through the problem, whatever it is. From my perspective, retiring the thing for the next 20 years seems expensive compared to another couple of shows hoping it comes around and can be useful for a good portion of that.[/QUOTE]

Holy moly, you can dial it back a notch. I actually deleted my comment after reading that update from Buck given the extenuating circumstances he described.

NOTHING I wrote made any judgements. I was trying to raise, IMO, a valid point which is how do other people navigate the fine line between “nappy” or “prick” and “ultimately unsuitable for its intended job”.

And FYI I happen to own an incredibly difficult horse that has not set foot in the show ring over the 3 years I have owned her because I haven’t felt she was at a point where I could take her to a show and not cause undue hardship for other competitors. Really, who is the one passing judgement here?

[riderboy]

[QUOTE=EventingJ;8695541]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/two-yellow-cards-handed-out-virginia-horse-trials

okay railbirds. Please enlighten us on how you would keep a horse calm and not panicked when a loose horse is running full steam at you. Perhaps had he stayed at Novice for several years he would learn not to panic in this situation? Maybe slowly moving up the levels would have given him less of a startle and would not have gotten caught up in ropes when on cross country he met a riderless horse galloping towards him?

please, let us know your training tips and techniques.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I just read that. Laine Ashker’s horse came at him running loose when Buck was on the XC course. That would pretty much pull the pin and release the spoon from a hand grenade. Is the FEI technically correct? I guess so.

[mg]

Honestly, this is the part that bothered me most in the COTH write-up:

“I asked what I should do in the future, and they said, ‘We thought you did a good job.’…I guess the rules are that I would have been better off to jump off, which would have endangered my horse and more people because at that point he was freaked out. I feel like the best place to control a horse is on it, and they completely agreed, but they’re sort of bound by the rules.”

I don’t compete at these levels, so pardon my ignorance, but isn’t part of the ground jury’s job to assess situations and act accordingly? Isn’t that why there are qualifications required to be on the ground jury? It’s a real bummer to see that they believed Buck handled the situation well but they felt required to card him anyway.

I get it, given the accidents and deaths which have happened recently, but it seems like an inappropriate overreaction. First let’s teach horses to stop thinking for themselves on XC. Next let’s have the riders stop thinking for themselves when it comes to decision making in safety. :no:

[LisaB]

So we have Buck’s story. I’m sure the GJ isn’t going to tell their side so we’ll never get the other side of the story. Leaves everyone scratching their heads as to ‘what is someone supposed to do?’ Eject from the jet and possibly run into a crowd? Or stay with the jet, steer the jet away from the crowd?

[ACMEeventing]

I have edited my last post because I thought it was a bit condescending. And since I was accusing others of the same, it was a bit of a double standard.

And since I have apparently demonstrated mastery of the elusive Double Standard, I am now submitting my application to be the next yellow card distributor. Pretty sure it’s a job requirement.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=EventingJ;8695541]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/two-yellow-cards-handed-out-virginia-horse-trials

okay railbirds. Please enlighten us on how you would keep a horse calm and not panicked when a loose horse is running full steam at you. Perhaps had he stayed at Novice for several years he would learn not to panic in this situation? Maybe slowly moving up the levels would have given him less of a startle and would not have gotten caught up in ropes when on cross country he met a riderless horse galloping towards him?

please, let us know your training tips and techniques.[/QUOTE]
I’m not certain if I have to ask xcntrygirl for permission on a hypothetical question, and I’ve been told that most times my opinion does not matter, but since you asked, you already stated the answer.

What is the purpose of moving a horse up so quickly other than to use it as an object, and intent either to sell for lots of money, “Hey look at this 3* horse, only has a few minor problems”, or to give the rider another 3*, potential 4* horse in a string that did not cost him/her tons of money to start.

In this case we are to understand the rider is not the owner so #2 make more sense. Novice to 2* in less that one year and no one sees a problem with that? We defend the notion that just because a horse can do it, we should do it to them?

Moving slowly, taking time for the horse to gain true confidence, handle new experiences, it seems common sense in training a horse. I mean, they do have a brain, the do have feelings of sorts even if it is simple fear, happy, upset. My horse use to spook at the oddest things. When he did I would take the time to have him explore the object, took the time to move him close, let him choose to get close, sniff it, then test it a couple of times after. I took the time and while he still can startle or tense and snort, what he does not do now is spook. Some moments he’d absolutely refuse and I’d accept that and address it later on.

So yes, had that horse been given time up level he might be the same good ride on cross country, but not the mess he turns into in warmup. We’ll never know now. I’ve already stated that my inexperienced method to correct warm up and start box issues would be like another post said, take him to shows, get him working around warm up in between levels and slowly stay longer each time as it gets more crowded. I’d build a start box at home and make sure he grazes by it, I’d ride through it at a walk, at a trot. I’d add decoration, even scary stuff and repeat and each time that horse step calmly up and into the box I’d praise the hell out of it. Eventually I’d do mock starts complete with two minutes.

But I’m not a professional with multiple horses to ride. I believe in firm discipline when needed, but I am a firm believer that when you find a stress point with a horse it is better to take it slow, firm if needed, but more lots of praise to work the stressor out.

As to topic and as I pointed out in my very first post, we are not working with all the facts. Now that they are there it seems the YC was more the result of a stupid, but valid rule about crossing ropes, though the other issue of anxious horse still applies in my book. Deserved? No more than a speeding ticket on a safe road barely over the limit. Lousy call? Sure, but dem’s the rules. I do hope Be Mine will be okay at his next outing.

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=Mia Sorella;8695719]
Holy moly, you can dial it back a notch. I actually deleted my comment after reading that update from Buck given the extenuating circumstances he described.

NOTHING I wrote made any judgements. I was trying to raise, IMO, a valid point which is how do other people navigate the fine line between “nappy” or “prick” and “ultimately unsuitable for its intended job”.

And FYI I happen to own an incredibly difficult horse that has not set foot in the show ring over the 3 years I have owned her because I haven’t felt she was at a point where I could take her to a show and not cause undue hardship for other competitors. Really, who is the one passing judgement here?[/QUOTE]

what judgment am I making, precisely?

If I could pull your post back out from the ether, it would be clear who.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=GotSpots;8695702]
It’s not condescending to correct the facts. Luckily, there are readily available records we can check:

It is simply not correct to say that Sinead and Allison did not compete in “over three months” leading up to the Olympics and Burghley. In 2012, Allison and Arthur started the season at Pine Top Advanced on February 24, completed Red Hills CIC***, entered Southern Pines Advanced and withdrew after dressage, completed The Fork, and completed Rolex CCI****. Then, she entered Bromont CIC*** in Canada and withdrew after dressage. Three weeks later, now in England, she completed the Barbury Castle CIC***, then the Hartpury CIC***, and then Burghley CCI**** on August 30. So, nine events Advanced or FEI events, over two continents and three countries, within six months and a week.[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected though in the details,
5/24 VHT (A) with a withdraw
over a month off till
6/29 Barbury Castle
@ a month a half rest till
8/9 Hartpury
close to a month rest till
8/30 Burghley

and by rest I mean not under the stress of competition, just workout.

So not a rigorous schedule either. From what I read at the time, much of the fitness did not come from going to shows, but utilizing the amazing galloping courses and extensive hacking they did away from the pressure of the show.

As a side note, the most shows she did in one year was 9, at least since USEA records their competition, that was the run for the Olympics (I guess) and then the switch to Burghley. Typically it looks like she’s done around 6 to 7 a year. Compare that to 15 in one year and I still do not see how that is truly good for the horse, especially a supposed green horse.

so thank you, I was able to be corrected and learn a little more.

[Ghazzu]

@JP60;8695780

Moving slowly, taking time for the horse to gain true confidence, handle new experiences, it seems common sense in training a horse. I mean, they do have a brain, the do have feelings of sorts even if it is simple fear, happy, upset. My horse use to spook at the oddest things. When he did I would take the time to have him explore the object, took the time to move him close, let him choose to get close, sniff it, then test it a couple of times after. I took the time and while he still can startle or tense and snort, what he does not do now is spook. Some moments he’d absolutely refuse and I’d accept that and address it later on.

People are going to accuse you of channeling Denny Emerson, if you keep posting stuff like that.

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=JP60;8695823]
I stand corrected though in the details,
5/24 VHT (A) with a withdraw
over a month off till
6/29 Barbury Castle
@ a month a half rest till
8/9 Hartpury
close to a month rest till
8/30 Burghley

and by rest I mean not under the stress of competition, just workout.

So not a rigorous schedule either. From what I read at the time, much of the fitness did not come from going to shows, but utilizing the amazing galloping courses and extensive hacking they did away from the pressure of the show.

As a side note, the most shows she did in one year was 9, at least since USEA records their competition, that was the run for the Olympics (I guess) and then the switch to Burghley. Typically it looks like she’s done around 6 to 7 a year. Compare that to 15 in one year and I still do not see how that is truly good for the horse, especially a supposed green horse.

so thank you, I was able to be corrected and learn a little more.[/QUOTE]

But the thing is, horses are individuals, and they don’t come with instruction manuals. It’s not really meaningful to compare them.

Some horses need to do xc every few weeks or they act like they’ve never seen a xc fence before. Sometimes you need to run to test a new bit or caveson or some aspect of your prep/ warmup. Sometimes you plan to do twelve events and miss a few because of a badly timed abscess or questionable footing. A green UL horse needs mileage and it’s very hard to get that any other way. An experienced horse may just need fitness and a tuneup.

Sometimes it takes a while to figure out what works for a particular horse. As they get older and less sound and more experienced and you figure things out, they may well need to do fewer and fewer events. My trainer did an Intermediate and an Advanced this year with her **** horse and then had a successful run at Rolex, but she’s had the horse for a long time and knows her very, very well-- and the horse is very experienced.

[Xctrygirl]

[QUOTE=JP60;8695780]
I’m not certain if I have to ask xcntrygirl for permission on a hypothetical question, and I’ve been told that most times my opinion does not matter, but since you asked, you already stated the answer.[/QUOTE]

Permission not granted since you and the horse in question have both behaved similarly. I just won’t call you what I called him. Mostly because I fear the Emerson toned rhetoric that such an act would surely inspire. (This is humor and sarcasm)

And seriously… pointing out that you guys don’t own the horse you’re running retraining scenarios on does not make me the person saying that I own all hypothetical situation. It just states you all don’t own the horse. Not sure how we got so deep in panty wad mode. But I’m prepared I have my box of White Zin box wine and a bunch of microwave popcorn with extra butter. Bring it Beaaches. (Smileys faces are meant to indicate that I am being humorous and playful, not serious)

Emily

[pegasusmom]

[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;8695767]
I have edited my last post because I thought it was a bit condescending. And since I was accusing others of the same, it was a bit of a double standard.

And since I have apparently demonstrated mastery of the elusive Double Standard, I am now submitting my application to be the next yellow card distributor. Pretty sure it’s a job requirement.[/QUOTE]

You do know that that ability is part of your neighbor’s job description .

[Sticky_Situation]

Honestly, the part that stuck with me the most is that the horse’s name is pronounced “Bimini” and didn’t in fact come from a Valentine’s Day conversation heart.

[PhoenixFarm]

My very best boy ever was a total monster in warm up. His highlight was once bolting and jumping in to a golf cart piloted by former poster canterlope’s DH. We often went on course without jumping anything, or at most 4 or five jumps. More than that generally went horribly wrong. On the way to the start box, I would always call out to the starter not to count me down past 30 seconds, and CERTAINLY not the 5-4-3-2-type count. If he heard that he would become completely unglued around the box. By the time he was in his dotage and was packing my students around at BN–we still warmed up sparingly, minimally, and I still couldn’t let starters count us down. This horse had a USEA record that was three plus pages long, and he never ever “settled down.”

You know, I’m getting damn tired of this trend towards eventing thinking our horses aren’t supposed to ever have any quirks, mistakes, personalities, challenges, or bad days. We aren’t freakin’ hunters. Our horses are supposed to be who they are and be allowed to show there greatest selves, warts and all. The fact is that many/most of the top horses I have known personally (and I’m old so I’ve known them from the good old days to currently) WERE/ARE “pricks” or SOB’s. They bite, or strike, or kick, or bolt, or don’t tie, many of them crib, many of them have a VIOLENT spook, many of them rear, many of them have wicked buck and even more wicked sense of humor. They are smart–and they don’t always use that power for good. And I think that is part and parcel of a horse’s greatness. That same personality that says, “You can’t make me puny human!” is the same personality that says “I can jump you puny Vicarage Vee!” These horses are smart and fearless and athletic, and are not like anything else. So stop comparing them to horses you know or have ridden in this or any discipline. They are NOT the same.

Do some people push their horses too fast? Absolutely. Can this sort of behavior be indicative of that? Perhaps. Can this sort of behavior just a likely (if not more likely) be indicative of a super star horse with an opinion and ego as big as Texas? Absolutely.

And you know what (now that I’m on a roll) I kind of blame the rise of social media and professional PR management for this perception that our horses have to be perfect all the time. I see consistently out here social media postings about a given horse’s performance, usually accompanied by a perfect photo, that always talks about how perfect everything went. Except I was there, and I know Pony was a turkey in warm up, or looked green as hell and ran to the chip at the first 6 jumps, or required them to school the water three times before approaching the official flags. And you know what? All of those are just fine–training horses isn’t a perfect straight line and those are normal show behaviors for horses that are learning. But nobody wants to show the “sausage making” part of training anymore. They want it to appear that horses never act silly, or spooky, or green, or naughty. Well that’s a lie, plain and simple, and it helps feed the clucking of railbirds who think if they see something less than perfect it’s the sign of something dire.

I have no idea what the deal with Bemine is–maybe he’s fried, and maybe he’s a super star in the making who is like my good horse. But I’m certainly in no position to judge that. And I suspect very very few of us posting here are too.

[ACMEeventing]

[QUOTE=pegasusmom;8696013]
You do know that that ability is part of your neighbor’s job description .[/QUOTE]
Good God, you’re contagious.

[QUOTE=PhoenixFarm;8696117]My very best boy ever was a total monster in warm up. His highlight was once bolting and jumping in to a golf cart piloted by former poster canterlope’s DH. We often went on course without jumping anything, or at most 4 or five jumps. More than that generally went horribly wrong. On the way to the start box, I would always call out to the starter not to count me down past 30 seconds, and CERTAINLY not the 5-4-3-2-type count. If he heard that he would become completely unglued around the box. By the time he was in his dotage and was packing my students around at BN–we still warmed up sparingly, minimally, and I still couldn’t let starters count us down. This horse had a USEA record that was three plus pages long, and he never ever “settled down.”

You know, I’m getting damn tired of this trend towards eventing thinking our horses aren’t supposed to ever have any quirks, mistakes, personalities, challenges, or bad days. We aren’t freakin’ hunters. Our horses are supposed to be who they are and be allowed to show there greatest selves, warts and all. The fact is that many/most of the top horses I have known personally (and I’m old so I’ve known them from the good old days to currently) WERE/ARE “pricks” or SOB’s. They bite, or strike, or kick, or bolt, or don’t tie, many of them crib, many of them have a VIOLENT spook, many of them rear, many of them have wicked buck and even more wicked sense of humor. They are smart–and they don’t always use that power for good. And I think that is part and parcel of a horse’s greatness. That same personality that says, “You can’t make me puny human!” is the same personality that says “I can jump you puny Vicarage Vee!” These horses are smart and fearless and athletic, and are not like anything else. So stop comparing them to horses you know or have ridden in this or any discipline. They are NOT the same.

Do some people push their horses too fast? Absolutely. Can this sort of behavior be indicative of that? Perhaps. Can this sort of behavior just a likely (if not more likely) be indicative of a super star horse with an opinion and ego as big as Texas? Absolutely.

And you know what (now that I’m on a roll) I kind of blame the rise of social media and professional PR management for this perception that our horses have to be perfect all the time. I see consistently out here social media postings about a given horse’s performance, usually accompanied by a perfect photo, that always talks about how perfect everything went. Except I was there, and I know Pony was a turkey in warm up, or looked green as hell and ran to the chip at the first 6 jumps, or required them to school the water three times before approaching the official flags. And you know what? All of those are just fine–training horses isn’t a perfect straight line and those are normal show behaviors for horses that are learning. But nobody wants to show the “sausage making” part of training anymore. They want it to appear that horses never act silly, or spooky, or green, or naughty. Well that’s a lie, plain and simple, and it helps feed the clucking of railbirds who think if they see something less than perfect it’s the sign of something dire.

I have no idea what the deal with Bemine is–maybe he’s fried, and maybe he’s a super star in the making who is like my good horse. But I’m certainly in no position to judge that. And I suspect very very few of us posting here are too.[/QUOTE]

Crushed it.

[EventerAJ]

[QUOTE=PhoenixFarm;8696117]
My very best boy ever was a total monster in warm up. His highlight was once bolting and jumping in to a golf cart piloted by former poster canterlope’s DH. We often went on course without jumping anything, or at most 4 or five jumps. More than that generally went horribly wrong. On the way to the start box, I would always call out to the starter not to count me down past 30 seconds, and CERTAINLY not the 5-4-3-2-type count. If he heard that he would become completely unglued around the box. By the time he was in his dotage and was packing my students around at BN–we still warmed up sparingly, minimally, and I still couldn’t let starters count us down. This horse had a USEA record that was three plus pages long, and he never ever “settled down.”

You know, I’m getting damn tired of this trend towards eventing thinking our horses aren’t supposed to ever have any quirks, mistakes, personalities, challenges, or bad days. We aren’t freakin’ hunters. Our horses are supposed to be who they are and be allowed to show there greatest selves, warts and all. The fact is that many/most of the top horses I have known personally (and I’m old so I’ve known them from the good old days to currently) WERE/ARE “pricks” or SOB’s. They bite, or strike, or kick, or bolt, or don’t tie, many of them crib, many of them have a VIOLENT spook, many of them rear, many of them have wicked buck and even more wicked sense of humor. They are smart–and they don’t always use that power for good. And I think that is part and parcel of a horse’s greatness. That same personality that says, “You can’t make me puny human!” is the same personality that says “I can jump you puny Vicarage Vee!” These horses are smart and fearless and athletic, and are not like anything else. So stop comparing them to horses you know or have ridden in this or any discipline. They are NOT the same.

Do some people push their horses too fast? Absolutely. Can this sort of behavior be indicative of that? Perhaps. Can this sort of behavior just a likely (if not more likely) be indicative of a super star horse with an opinion and ego as big as Texas? Absolutely.

And you know what (now that I’m on a roll) I kind of blame the rise of social media and professional PR management for this perception that our horses have to be perfect all the time. I see consistently out here social media postings about a given horse’s performance, usually accompanied by a perfect photo, that always talks about how perfect everything went. Except I was there, and I know Pony was a turkey in warm up, or looked green as hell and ran to the chip at the first 6 jumps, or required them to school the water three times before approaching the official flags. And you know what? All of those are just fine–training horses isn’t a perfect straight line and those are normal show behaviors for horses that are learning. But nobody wants to show the “sausage making” part of training anymore. They want it to appear that horses never act silly, or spooky, or green, or naughty. Well that’s a lie, plain and simple, and it helps feed the clucking of railbirds who think if they see something less than perfect it’s the sign of something dire.

I have no idea what the deal with Bemine is–maybe he’s fried, and maybe he’s a super star in the making who is like my good horse. But I’m certainly in no position to judge that. And I suspect very very few of us posting here are too.[/QUOTE]

Applause!

[PaintedHunter]

PhoenixFarm, APPLAUSE. I absolutely think that most of those top horses have to have a bit of a crazy streak in them in some way to look at those jumps and say “BRING IT. IMMA CRUSH IT.”

Kind of like all of us eventers as people

As for showing the sausage making… I’m no big rider, and I never will be. but in my blog, I make the conscious decision to show the good, the bad, and the ugly - LOTS of the ugly, really. More ugly than pretty! That’s the part that makes me better. No one is perfect. No horse is perfect. And no one should have unrealistic expectations that belie that. I want all the other partial-weenie or struggling lower-level ammies like me to feel like their state of progress is OK.