Two yellow cards and a verbal warning given at VHT

I don’t know nuttin about nuttin, but here’s my two cents.
Coth recently had an article about a horse years ago that the kid riding said his dad told him to work this horse hard every day. And the days before the show they would gallop him, a lot. If you didn’t, you couldn’t keep him from bucking over the fences. This horse had a long career, took several riders to championships at major shows and always had that twist to his personality. He had to be worked, worked hard, or he couldn’t keep it together.

I know a few men that have personalities like this. They have such a hardcore work drive that if they aren’t busy 16 hours out of the day they make the rest of the crew nuts. I think the propensity to handle such physical stress is why some people stay in jobs that have long hours and is grueling. And of course this personality in the canines is a border collie. :slight_smile:

Since we venerate Michael Jung so much, perhaps we can compare his approach to making a top level horse to what we are reading about in this thread.

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/01/michael-jung-talks-about-training-eventing-horses/

"Keep a natural rhythm in the canter, don’t force a horse to go slower than his natural tempo. A restraining hand will lead to errors and irregularities. Even with naturally hot horses, you have to be able to apply a driving leg. If your horse becomes too hot, ride on a large circle and use your voice to calm it down. Only when harmony and ease are re-established, should jumping be resumed.

And we wonder why the US cannot compete with Europe, hell MJ on the international level. It seems to me that we decided that to fix a hot horse, we just push it harder, that fast is better than slow, that more is better than less.

Still, the experts have not given a valid reason why to push a horse up 6 levels in one year other than say with a straight face, “because we can”.

Then that is this from the man we view as God in Eventing

“The most important thing are the horses,” Michael says. "We cannot have big success without a big partnership where the horse gives 100-120% for you.

Now somehow explain that in this country, pushing horses past their limit, ignoring their natural fears, calling them names is somehow going to make us number one again, when the top most rider in the world repudiates most of your claims.

This all started because a BNR got a yellow card for a valid infraction of the rules, yet instead of actually questioning the actions of said rider, the judgement leading up to that moment, of considering the idea that maybe the horse was not truly prepared to handle chaotic events like a loose horse on course, we blame the horse, never the human.

We get all up in arms that ML used harsh bits, caused blood on a horse and said “shame on you, how can you do this to a horse”. Somehow we don’t even consider the mental state of a horse pushed hard into the top levels of this sport in less than a year? Because it does not cause physical pain?

Let us collectively come out in agreement that it is okay to push a horse through 6 levels in one year. That when it acts up we just say ‘its got attitude’ without trying to understand why, and most of all, let us continue to ponder why MJ is one of the best when he lays it out as clear as can be…the most important thing is the horses.

That is why we can’t play with nice things like gold medals and winning big prizes, we forgot our horses.

I know I should just move on, because this is like spitting in the rain, but what the hell, I’ve had a glass of lovely wine tonight.

I’m curious why you think any of that which Jung states isn’t true of Buck and his riding or training? I’ve actually spent a bit of time in his barn, watching him teach and ride, have you? Do you think he can’t put his leg on his horses? Do you think he doesn’t speak to them kindly? Or ride in the way described in Jung’s quotes? Similarly, do you think Jung has never had a horse misbehave? Or make mistakes? Or be naughty? Have you seen Jung school and train his horses? Do you think he gives them a pat when they suck behind the leg or nap? Do you think he whispers sweet nothings at them when they disobey? I’ve seen him school and while he is excellent and has damn near perfect timing, they dont get coddled if they aren’t doing as required. Do you think Buck doesn’t go home after every competition and pick apart every aspect of his and his horses’ performance to figure out what to make better?

You seem to believe that the vast majority of horses at the four star level are abused and unloved. I’m curious how much time you’ve spent with those horses and those riders? I have my favorites, and I have my ones I wouldn’t pee on if they were on fire, and whose horses I do feel bad for, but I base my opinions on first hand observations, not assumptions based on what something looks like on paper. On paper the move up the levels this horse has done is not something that I would be on board with becoming the norm. But I don’t know this horse. I don’t know what he knew or did before Buck had him, I don’t know what his temperament and skill set is, I don’t know what he schools like at home. And neither do you. Horses are notoriously bad at reading the manual, and if 35 plus years in this sport has taught me anything, it’s that horses are all individuals and they love to make liars out of you. Hell, a month ago we took two horses to a show, one we’ve had since birth and one we’ve had for more than two years and for whatever reason the one that is usually kicking quiet was a total squirrel and the one that is usually a squirrel was kicking quiet. Who knows why? They both showed last weekend and were back to their normal selves.

Most horses shouldn’t move up that quick. Most horses would fry or get scared. But most and all are not the same words. Absolutism is not appropriate for horse training.

And on the topic of absolutism, the rule that jumping or crossing ropes is an automatic yellow card is insane. Buck was joking in his quote, but seriously, you are asking people to bale off and leave the horse to its own devices in the ropes and crowds, rather than try to protect horse and bystanders. Are there times it should be DR? Of course, but sometimes it’s bad luck. Like everything with the FEI I’m totally bumfuzzled by the application of safety measures.

[QUOTE=PhoenixFarm;8696377]
I know I should just move on, because this is like spitting in the rain, but what the hell, I’ve had a glass of lovely wine tonight.

I’m curious why you think any of that which Jung states isn’t true of Buck and his riding or training? I’ve actually spent a bit of time in his barn, watching him teach and ride, have you? Do you think he can’t put his leg on his horses? Do you think he doesn’t speak to them kindly? Or ride in the way described in Jung’s quotes? Similarly, do you think Jung has never had a horse misbehave? Or make mistakes? Or be naughty? Have you seen Jung school and train his horses? Do you think he gives them a pat when they suck behind the leg or nap? Do you think he whispers sweet nothings at them when they disobey? I’ve seen him school and while he is excellent and has damn near perfect timing, they dont get coddled if they aren’t doing as required. Do you think Buck doesn’t go home after every competition and pick apart every aspect of his and his horses’ performance to figure out what to make better?

You seem to believe that the vast majority of horses at the four star level are abused and unloved. I’m curious how much time you’ve spent with those horses and those riders? I have my favorites, and I have my ones I wouldn’t pee on if they were on fire, and whose horses I do feel bad for, but I base my opinions on first hand observations, not assumptions based on what something looks like on paper. On paper the move up the levels this horse has done is not something that I would be on board with becoming the norm. But I don’t know this horse. I don’t know what he knew or did before Buck had him, I don’t know what his temperament and skill set is, I don’t know what he schools like at home. And neither do you. Horses are notoriously bad at reading the manual, and if 35 plus years in this sport has taught me anything, it’s that horses are all individuals and they love to make liars out of you. Hell, a month ago we took two horses to a show, one we’ve had since birth and one we’ve had for more than two years and for whatever reason the one that is usually kicking quiet was a total squirrel and the one that is usually a squirrel was kicking quiet. Who knows why? They both showed last weekend and were back to their normal selves.

Most horses shouldn’t move up that quick. Most horses would fry or get scared. But most and all are not the same words. Absolutism is not appropriate for horse training.

And on the topic of absolutism, the rule that jumping or crossing ropes is an automatic yellow card is insane. Buck was joking in his quote, but seriously, you are asking people to bale off and leave the horse to its own devices in the ropes and crowds, rather than try to protect horse and bystanders. Are there times it should be DR? Of course, but sometimes it’s bad luck. Like everything with the FEI I’m totally bumfuzzled by the application of safety measures.[/QUOTE]

Well said.

We toned down some of the language and commentary in some posts. Please avoid it going forward.

I haven’t had to do anything in here in a while – thanks! :encouragement:
Mod 1

I believe it’s time to invoke Godwin’s Law of the Eventing Forum:

It’s perfectly obvious that this horse needs the long format, where warm-up occurred solo on roads and tracks and steeplechase. :winkgrin:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Note: this post is in jest, though if someone wants to compare the FEI application of their rope rule in this instance to Nazi enforcement, I can’t say I’d blame them.

I’m with BFNE. I hate rope. It’s difficult to see, doesn’t break easily, has caused injuries and certainly has the potential to cause more. Why not use yellow Police tape? Very cheap, highly visible, weatherproof and it will break. Not like wet toilet paper, but it will give way. And frankly, the way I’ve been riding lately, crime scene tape seems altogether fitting. :eek:

http://i.imgur.com/opISB70.jpg[/img]"]

The one downside is that if it’s at all windy, it makes an incredible amount of noise when it flaps.

Ask me how I know.

JP60, you are on the verge of giving me the collywobbles.

[QUOTE=Badger;8696448]
I believe it’s time to invoke Godwin’s Law of the Eventing Forum:

It’s perfectly obvious that this horse needs the long format, where warm-up occurred solo on roads and tracks and steeplechase. :winkgrin:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Note: this post is in jest, though if someone wants to compare the FEI application of their rope rule in this instance to Nazi enforcement, I can’t say I’d blame them.[/QUOTE]

Clearly, the horse has ulcers and would not have spooked if they’d been properly treated.

(Joking, of course!!)

I believe nothing of the kind. My view is that if one has an eventing horse, at almost any level, that horse is well cared for. I see examples at my level every week and I have seen, from the outside, examples at the top of the sport. There are any number of more well known riders I respect, including Americans that show the best in how to care for, train, and compete.

That does not rule out that some are less connected to their horses. There is certainly one ULR that has come under criticism for both the condition of and the manner in which they compete. These are humans, they are not infallible and when they make a mistake, because of their visibility it does need to be discussed so the sport as a whole can improve.

Here we have a described (by some) prick of a horse, nappy for reasons unknown that has real control issues, whether or not it is “good” on cross country. Though the Rider did follow the letter of the rules moving the horse up, the fact that it was moved up so fast, so high indicates more than “He’s ready for it” since those ULR I’ve read and looked up tend to not push so hard on a horse in the beginning. He’s “Nappy” and “We’ll look to take care of it” don’t quite go together with a schedule that would indicate little time to “take care of it”, again, observing the pressures of a Professional Rider, not a personal attack.

More and more these Riders are having to seemingly do more with less. We see Riders like Dutton, Davidson, Martin come in to shows with multiple rides. I cannot fathom they are all owned by one person. Thus we have the pressures of owners wanting to see their horse run in a 3*, another wanting the horse trained faster, another hoping for good placement to get better value on a sale. Maybe the Rider him/her self has a couple that they are bringing along. That is a lot of horses to be “connected to”, to trust with your life and I find it hard to imagine the any Rider with 9-11 horses at a show is truly taking much time to analyze in detail the performance. By that point, it’s a job and they need to get the job done.

Does Buck pat a horse, give it a rub, or some other generic action we all do because we love horses…sure, as he gets off and prepares to get on the next horse on the list. I’ll accept your anecdotal evidence that he’s a good guy, but even good guys have bad days, make wrong decisions, get pressured into doing something, because in that moment the choices are few.

Buck got a YC, because he broke a rule and as far as I know, even in Eventing, ignorance of the rule is not a defense. Those who don’t like roped off areas make a valid point, but that it existed, then yes, it was the responsibility of the Rider to do anything possible to stay out of it, potentially putting him/her self in harms way, because instead of one lady getting rope burns, it might have been two getting run over by the horse. Had he fallen, like the Rider with the loose horse than that tells a different story, but at the end of the day, we ride these horses, they are our responsibility and we are responsible for their actions.

So many here have stated in some shape “How dare they give Buck a YC, he’s the best rider around” and after all I’ve read, learned in researching this is what I feel, I am glad they gave him that card. Looking past his joking, what I’d hope he got from it was being aware of the environment, know how your horse might react in a situation and try to be proactive in lessening the reaction, and even going as far as pulling a horse out of the competition track and getting its mental state straightened out or find it another job. If you think, who am I to question a professional, what do you know little lower level rider? I’ll say this…

I used to fly airplanes. I knew very skilled, professional pilots that could land a thousand ton airplane in nasty nasty conditions, but these pilots, every six months went back and had the skill tested, reviewed, even altered if they showed signs of beginning to have poor judgement. I sat in the cockpit of a small airplane, me with my PPL and two ATP pilots that flew really big airplanes and their lack of judgement and inability to handle a small plane scared the hell out of me that day to the point where I asked, can I land the plane?

People die when professionals get complacent, and while this is clearly not as intense, I find no fault in having any Eventing professional’s skill challenged, judgement reviewed lest they fall off a horse at Novice and break a bone thinking just their skill will make it work. They are not gods, if they want my respect they need to earn it, not expect it just because they jump higher, go faster than me.

At the end of the day, it is all about the horses, the ones with no say, the ones with the only voice they can use, their body, and we better not forget it lest we lose this sport to hubris.

Peace out. My libation awaits the end of the day, as well does my ride.

[QUOTE=JP60

So many here have stated in some shape “How dare they give Buck a YC, he’s the best rider around” and after all I’ve read, learned in researching this is what I feel, I am glad they gave him that card. Looking past his joking, what I’d hope he got from it was being aware of the environment, know how your horse might react in a situation and try to be proactive in lessening the reaction, and even going as far as pulling a horse out of the competition track and getting its mental state straightened out or find it another job. If you think, who am I to question a professional, what do you know little lower level rider?

People die when professionals get complacent, and while this is clearly not as intense, I find no fault in having any Eventing professional’s skill challenged, judgement reviewed lest they fall off a horse at Novice and break a bone thinking just their skill will make it work. They are not gods, if they want my respect they need to earn it, not expect it just because they jump higher, go faster than me.

At the end of the day, it is all about the horses, the ones with no say, the ones with the only voice they can use, their body, and we better not forget it lest we lose this sport to hubris.
[/QUOTE]

^ This, exactly.
After 25 years of supporting and participating in this sport, I can agree that just because someone is a highly skilled professional, doesn’t mean they don’t make mistakes and have errors in judgment.
In this time of increased scrutiny due to recent incidents, we had best be open preventing our own hubris.

[QUOTE=JP60;8696354]

Let us collectively come out in agreement that it is okay to push a horse through 6 levels in one year. That when it acts up we just say ‘its got attitude’ without trying to understand why, and most of all, let us continue to ponder why MJ is one of the best when he lays it out as clear as can be…the most important thing is the horses.

That is why we can’t play with nice things like gold medals and winning big prizes, we forgot our horses.[/QUOTE]

You have repeatedly put quite a bit of emphasis on the fact that this horse has been, in your opinion, pushed two hard - 6 levels in one year. Now, his rapid rise up the levels may or may not have a role to play here, but I think we should at least make sure we are dealing with facts.

The horse first evented (at BN) in January of 2014. In January of 2015, the horse had run at the Intermediate/2* level (successfully, based on his record). That is 5 levels, not 6. But more importantly, you need, IMO, to consider what this horse had done before coming to eventing.

https://www.usef.org/_iframes/searches/horseResultsReport.aspx

He started showing with his owner in 2011. I believe he is a 2006 model, so he would have been 5. He showed in the jumpers in 2011 and 2012 at heights up to 1.10m, plus one 1.20m class. While his record has some unusual features that hint at some difficulties, I think we can still conclude that by the time he came to Buck, he did have some showing experience over decent sized fences. This was not a green as grass horse. It appears that he may have been fairly well schooled on the flat as Buck had some pretty immediate success in the dressage phase.

While it still wouldn’t be my personal choice to move a horse up that quickly - this also wasn’t a horse that sounds like it needed a whole bunch of seasoning at the BN-Training levels. He was also a more physically mature horse given that he started at the age of 8, and I believe he was redirected to eventing because he was already a difficult horse. While I am not one to call a horse a “prick”, some are more difficult than others and need to have their quirks managed/properly directed. This doesn’t mean you don’t investigate physical issues, or try different approaches, of course. But nor do we know that isn’t something going on inside Buck’s barn.

As for Michael Jung. He has, of course, had a considerable amount of success. But, as another poster pointed out, what do you truly know about his methods and approach? Why do Buck, Boyd and Phillip gets slammed by you for jumping from one horse to another while MJ seemingly gets a free pass?

I don’t know how to search horse trial records in Germany, but I’d note that MJ currently has 12 horses registered to his name in the FEI database. Dutton has 9. Boyd Martin also has 12, as does Buck Davidson.

Of MJ’s event horses currently under his name for 2016, all ran at the 1* as 6 year olds. And most, early in their 6 year old year (March). So, while one could argue he has a good system, other could argue that he has an inflexible program - 1* by 6 or you are out.

My point simply being that I think it is fair game to discuss riders and horses on the BB, but we should remember that we don’t generally actually have the inside scoop on why decisions are made and what programs are in place.

[QUOTE=riderboy;8696496]
Why not use yellow Police tape? Very cheap, highly visible, weatherproof and it will break. [/QUOTE]

Oh yes! Let’s make XC look like a crime scene! Instead of a CCI, it can be a CSI. And the local LE will save so much time when someone actually gets killed.

Now there’s an idea. Don’t you think that TP’ing the entire XC course would be so much more in the spirit of eventing?

We count slightly different as I see *s as separate. Either way, yes 5 or 6 seems much in less than one year, as is your opinion asl well

While it still wouldn’t be my personal choice to move a horse up that quickly

I see your view on his early background, but then again, at age 5 he’s already doing 3’6" to 3’9" jumper rounds which, as I’ve read other people’s commentary, can have its own stressors. That he had “issues” when handed over to Buck, would that not be a moment to start addressing them before running him that quick up the ladder?

I feel we might agree that a jumper show is vastly different than a three phase event show. We ask more from the horse in three different phases and while he may have the physical maturity, did he really have the mental maturity. He remains a “problem” horse so really nothing has been done to address it (after two years) that other than the potential physical/pain possibility which we assume was ruled out.

He’s a prick say’s xcntrygirl and others just pile on with “yeah well some horses are just bad” and see, I don’t buy that. We all know horses are prey animals, that we train the flight aspect down, if not out so they work with us when we ask them to do things that are not normal aspects of their lives. Not every horse is mentally able to handle the rigors of Eventing, yet if they protest in some way we seem to just think they are bad, not telling us “I don’t really want to do this”. Sure Be Mine may run okay on course, but given the letters in placement, there are holes in the “good”. I have seen a horse go from crazy wild fighting every step to go into a ring full of jumps, just for practice to that same horse being a super sweetheart when trail riding or just entering an empty arena. Is he bad? Is he good? Or was he saying all along, I don’t want to do that for some reason. If we don’t take the time to figure it out and just keep pushing the horse in, we potentially do more damage than good.

You do make a valid point on Riders, though registered horses vs who they ride at shows are two different things. Boyd was not riding one of his horses at Novice when he fell. Kyle was not riding one of his horses when it died. These guys are riding multiple owners at times and it is a way to make money. They also may be training some of those registered horses to be expensive, but good LL rides, not able to run at the top. I’d then say the same for MJ without knowing the inner workings. Still, when I see him ride, when I see how he rides his horse(s), when I hear his talks and read his words I am reminded why he is currently the best rider in the world. His horses seem to not have issues (that we can see) so he might have a inflexible training program, but his horses seem healthy, happy on course in what looks like a simple bit, and he’s one of the best. That is not a bad program on the surface to emulate pending facts not in evidence.

I don’t think anyone in this case is saying “how dare Buck get a yellow card”. The rule, as dumb and inflexible as it is, is clear–break the ropes, for any reason, get a yellow card. He broke the ropes, thus yellow card.

What I personally object to is using that circumstance, and the behavior of a horse I don’t think any of us knows personally, to impune Buck as a rider or horseman, to imply that this proves that upper level riders have no bond with their horses, treat them as numbers, or make greater comments about the sport such as we’re all a bunch of fawning star lovers who don’t give a damn about horses.

You keep comparing the collective reaction to MLM versus the collective reaction to Buck. I can only speak for myself, but to me there is a tremendous difference between a consistent behavior that physically injures horses, and should by my reading of the rules, also be an automatic penalty, and a quirky horse being the victim of difficult circumstances and running up against a black and white rule. (Though I would love to hear an explanation about why one of these black and white rules gets applied without impunity and one doesn’t). YMMV.

There are a lot of problems in the modern sport. A lot of issues that need discussing. A rider having a bad day with a talented, quirky, difficult horse is really far down the list.

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8696559]
JP60, you are on the verge of giving me the collywobbles.[/QUOTE]

I had to look up collywobbles! :winkgrin:

I have tried to read all the posts in this thread and I just have a couple of questions.

  1. Is the problem with the rule that would cause “anyone” to get a yellow card?

  2. Is it because a BNR got the yellow card vs an unknown?

  3. Why does the span of time at the different levels have anything to do with this?

  4. Why wouldn’t the GJ look at the actual situation? (I think a loose horse running at you is completely different than an unprovoked horse just crashing through the ropes)

Hoping not to offend, just some clarifications:)

[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;8697043]
I had to look up collywobbles! :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

And I thought I was the only one! At least I learned something today …

You mean when riders are killed, or horses, or both? :frowning: