[QUOTE=Tory;8697083]
I have tried to read all the posts in this thread and I just have a couple of questions.
Is the problem with the rule that would cause “anyone” to get a yellow card?
Is it because a BNR got the yellow card vs an unknown?
Why does the span of time at the different levels have anything to do with this?
Why wouldn’t the GJ look at the actual situation? (I think a loose horse running at you is completely different than an unprovoked horse just crashing through the ropes)
Hoping not to offend, just some clarifications:)[/QUOTE]
It appears (without digging through the FEI rulebook) that it’s a rule-- go through/ over the rope while mounted, regardless of reason, automatically get a yellow card for dangerous riding. So in this case, it sounds like it was both applied as written and kind of unfair under the circumstances. Since very few people practice going out on xc with a loose horse galloping back at them, almost anyone could have ended up in this situation.
[QUOTE=Tory;8697083]
I have tried to read all the posts in this thread and I just have a couple of questions.
Is the problem with the rule that would cause “anyone” to get a yellow card?
Is it because a BNR got the yellow card vs an unknown?
Why does the span of time at the different levels have anything to do with this?
Why wouldn’t the GJ look at the actual situation? (I think a loose horse running at you is completely different than an unprovoked horse just crashing through the ropes)
Hoping not to offend, just some clarifications:)[/QUOTE]
As far a questions 1,2, and 4, the rule as written is black and white–ropes break = automatic yellow card. I don’t like it because I always think the ground jury should have discretion in cases like these. I don’t care if it was a rider at Rolex or an ammy at their first BN. I think the ground jury should determine if dangerous riding was the cause, not the only conclusion.
As far as question three, some people believed, prior to the release of details that this incident had been the result of a pattern of behavior from a fried, poorly trained, badly managed, unloved horse. Additional details would indicate to me that this is far more complicated situation than initially believed. Other people believe differently.
[QUOTE=JER;8696884]
Oh yes! Let’s make XC look like a crime scene! Instead of a CCI, it can be a CSI. And the local LE will save so much time when someone actually gets killed.
Now there’s an idea. Don’t you think that TP’ing the entire XC course would be so much more in the spirit of eventing?[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you are right. We need something strong! Barbed wire. That’ll teach 'em to lose control of their horse. Electrified would be even better.
[QUOTE=riderboy;8697150]
Perhaps you are right. We need something strong! Barbed wire. That’ll teach 'em to lose control of their horse. Electrified would be even better.[/QUOTE]
Instead of barbed wire or crime scene tape, maybe they should just line the area with COTH forum posts. That’ll scare anyone away.
[QUOTE=riderboy;8696496]
I’m with BFNE. I hate rope. It’s difficult to see, doesn’t break easily, has caused injuries and certainly has the potential to cause more. Why not use yellow Police tape? Very cheap, highly visible, weatherproof and it will break. Not like wet toilet paper, but it will give way. And frankly, the way I’ve been riding lately, crime scene tape seems altogether fitting. :eek:
Seems to me that the rule for “breaking” the ropes is lacking something. At one event, a novice level horse jumped over the rope. The horse wasn’t out of control, it just decided to continue on the straight line vs turning. I think the rider was a bit shocked and surprised (poor kid).
Since getting a yellow card is such a serious matter, one would hope that quite a bit of thought and attention would be applied to a situation before giving one.
[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;8697164]
Instead of barbed wire or crime scene tape, maybe they should just line the area with COTH forum posts. That’ll scare anyone away.[/QUOTE]
Yes! Just kidding about the barbed wire btw. Gryhrs crashed at Flying Cross a few years ago trying to avoid a rope on XC.
[QUOTE=PaintedHunter;8697164]
Instead of barbed wire or crime scene tape, maybe they should just line the area with COTH forum posts. That’ll scare anyone away.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8696559]
JP60, you are on the verge of giving me the collywobbles.[/QUOTE]
I am making you sick to your stomach? Simply because I advocate strongly for horses? Because I care about this sport?
Overall I’ve tried to be thoughtful, admitting minor errors, researching, and asking a question about a practice that at least one other person at least admitted they would not do either.
I am passionate about horses, yes, and I do hold ULR more accountable for their actions so other than I am at times wordy, I admit to that, in what way other than a general dislike for me causes you to be sick to your stomach because of me?
Feel free to PM me with an answer or air it here. Either way I think it important, because I do have a right to express my thoughts here, and making a sideways insult does little to continue reasoned discourse.
[QUOTE=Tory;8697188]
Thank you Highflyer and PhoenixFarms.
Seems to me that the rule for “breaking” the ropes is lacking something. At one event, a novice level horse jumped over the rope. The horse wasn’t out of control, it just decided to continue on the straight line vs turning. I think the rider was a bit shocked and surprised (poor kid).
Since getting a yellow card is such a serious matter, one would hope that quite a bit of thought and attention would be applied to a situation before giving one.[/QUOTE]
This is an FEI rule not a usef one-- but I actually would say that situation is the definition of out of control. At an FEI event there are generally spectators all along the ropes, which increases the danger factor.
There are a lot of problems in the modern sport. A lot of issues that need discussing. A rider having a bad day with a talented, quirky, difficult horse is really far down the list.[/QUOTE]
And the end of the day, I agree and I’ll leave it at that. You win.
[QUOTE=Tory;8697188]
Thank you Highflyer and PhoenixFarms.
Seems to me that the rule for “breaking” the ropes is lacking something. At one event, a novice level horse jumped over the rope. The horse wasn’t out of control, it just decided to continue on the straight line vs turning. I think the rider was a bit shocked and surprised (poor kid).
Since getting a yellow card is such a serious matter, one would hope that quite a bit of thought and attention would be applied to a situation before giving one.[/QUOTE]
How was a horse that wouldn’t turn not out of control, exactly? I mean isn’t inability to steer, stop, and go kind of the epitome of out of control? Or is “out of control” reserved for nappiness including but not limited to bucking, rearing, and bolting?
JP60 - I don’t really think its overly productive for me to continue engaging in this discussion. I think you’ve decided that you are right and when faced with facts that aren’t convenient, you will acknowledge them but aren’t willing to consider the impact they may have on your stance/POV.
For instance, while you are willing to “see my view” on his background, you jump to considering that doing 3’6"-3’9" courses as a 5 year old might be part of the problem and refer to him continually as a “problem” horse, despite having limited knowledge about the horse’s past or current issues. And regardless of the fact that his competition record hardly suggests he was jumped into the ground as a 5 year old:
Based on what little information we do have from interviews, etc. It sounds like his owner has tried to accommodate the horse. He was purchased as a dressage horse, but apparently didn’t like that life. Tried life as a jumper, and then ended up in Buck’s barn and has had good success until recently. Again, he ran successfully at the Intermediate/2* level, which involve sizable fences that are difficult to force the horse over if he isn’t interested.
[i] Owned by Lisa Darden, she purchased Be Mine as a 3-year-old dressage prospect, who quickly showed he had no interest in being a dressage horse. “He’s basically quiet until he’s not, and then hang on, because he’s going to buck, and he’s going to spin, and he’s going to have a good time,” Buck said.
Lisa sent the horse to Buck to evaluate, and after they unsuccessfully tried to sell him, Be Mine did his first Novice in January. He’s flown through the levels since, winning the Bromont CCI* in June and now winning the Plantation Field CIC2* — definitely a quick progression through the levels, and Buck said he’s well aware of that fact.
“This whole weekend has been about trying to do the right thing,” Buck said. “I think mentally the reason he’s here is because he’s a bit of a bastard. He needs to be challenged, and he’s good enough.” Be Mine’s owner, Lisa Darden, fully supported the decision to move him up to the two-star level at Plantation Field.
Buck said he couldn’t think of another horse he’s ever had that moved up the levels so quickly and with such a high success rate. “I will pull the reins back eventually and not keep pushing; we’ll leave him at Intermediate for a bit,” Buck said. [/i]
You will no doubt take issue with the term “bastard”, but I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because I know the type of personality I suspect he is referring to. Some horses are fit, sound, athletic and generally ready to play the game. But here and there, its “no” I do not want to do that today, or at this particular moment. And you need to work through it, because the horse is otherwise generally happy in his work and, to be quite honest, hanging out and having no job is usually not a viable alternative.
I have a horse who is 18 this year. I held him in my arms while he drew his first breath. He’s competed at advanced with a pro, taken a now-pro through th CCI ** level when he was a YR, and has now packed several of our students through the training level. He has been everything I could have dreamed of. He’s been competing since 2002, and I’ve seen every competition save three.
And he is a total bastard. I have called him rat bastard, you bastard, effing bastard, goddamn bastard. I’ve called him jerk, twerp, prick, and jackass. A lot of jackass. He has bucked off every single person who has ever ridden him, including two Olympians and two other four star riders. He has a patented move on the ground that he has made a spectacle of himself at some of the country’s most famous venues. He has tried to kill himself, and me, and others on more than once occasion. I love him dearly, will keep him till he breathes his last, and fully expect his last action on this earth will be to tear up, put a leg over the lead rope, and take off.
Because he is a jackass. He’s my jackass and I love him, but that doesn’t mean I hold him on some sort of rarefied pedestal. They’re all just horses, and their all individuals, and I do think when they made him they broke the mold. Thank god.
It is not enough that I accepted your POV, I got it. You just wanted to shove the blade in more.
Fine…
I had a 29 year old trakehner that I held in my arms as she took her last breath. That horse was a beat up, tossed out the back old wreck that no one cared about till I came along. I pulled her out of that rotted paddock, I learned to ride her, had her buck me off, toss me off, run off with me. She scared the crap out of me more times that I wanted in the beginning. Yet somehow I figured it out, she got me my first blue ribbon in dressage, in a CT, showed me what a real gallop felt like as I whooped in joy, and showed me that jumping 2’7" was not that scary. The day she fell and landed on me, when I came back to consciousness my first thought was where was she and is she okay.
I never called her a bad name, was never rough, was firm eventually as I learned and she was the best horse I ever knew until I met my current horse. I met a horse, she changed my life, she rescued me and I am sorry that you cannot see what that meant to me or how it shaped my life with horses.
Think what you want of me for you know little to nothing of my character, my heart and how I view the world. If you even, for a moment, tried, instead of throwing me under your bus, you might find more in common for I would hope it would be a passion, love, and thought that our horses come first; over ego, over money, over pride.
I bet you cared deeply for that horse and others around you and I never…never questioned you personally on that.
Now, do you think I loved mine just as much? Do you even start to understand where my passion comes from?
Go ahead and shove the blade in more, I don’t care, your only human.
JP60, I don’t think anyone is questioning your love for your horses, or passion for horses in general. It is very clear from your posts that you care very much about horse welfare, and that’s a very good thing.
However, I think everyone seems to be talking past each other and probably agree more than disagree. I don’t think anyone here wants to see horses going from N to 2* in one year become the norm … But when moving any horse up the levels, it’s individual temperament and past career must be taken into consideration. A horse that did 3’9" jumpers previously is likely to move through the lower levels much faster than a 4 year old fresh off the track.
And the “dirty names” used for difficult horses are often used more as terms of endearment than applied in anger or dislike. I wouldn’t call my current horse difficult in general, but he has his quirks, and I have definitely called him a a**hole more than once after he’s spooked at the indoor arena gremlins for the 600th time in one ride … But it’s said as I roll my eyes and laugh, and I know how lucky I am to have such a great little horse.
The upper level riders with big strings of horses may not have the same close relationship with every horse they ride as we ammies do with our 1 or 2 partners, but that doesn’t mean the horses are unloved or that a lot of thought doesn’t go into their training and planning their careers. Without firsthand knowledge of the situation, it’s not fair to say the horse is being treated improperly, or that he will end up on the next truck to New Holland if he washes out of eventing.
