Ulcer questions (papaya, calcium:phosphorus ratio and flax)

[DancingArabian]

A few questions…

1. I’ve been reading that papaya is great for horses with ulcers. I’ve read great things about Stomach Soother, but feeding him a liquid isn’t viable, so I need a tablet. Can anyone recommend papaya pills that I can add to his feed? Also, how do I figure out how much to give him?

2. I give my horse Tums before we go riding. He loves his Tums! I am concerned that the additional calcium from the Tums may cause problems down the road. Wouldn’t the calcium from the Tums throw off his calcium to phosphorus ratio? Should I be adding something else to his feed to help with this? If so, what and how much?

3. I’ve also read that flaxseed is also good for horses that are ulcer-prone and to feed 1/2 cup per day. Any truth to this?

If anyone is curious, he gets this as his feed 2x/day:

• 1/2 pound KER AllPhase
• 1 pound alfalfa pellets
• MSM (I keep him on the loading dose since I’ve read MSM is good for ulcery horse
• ProBios probiotic
• Summer Games Electrolyte (when it’s very hot or very cold out)
• Ranitidine (3000mg)
• SmartCalm Ultra (1x/day)
• Smart Digest Ultra (1x/day)

[islgrl]

Without addressing all of the questions I will tell you that papaya did absolutely nothing for my ulcerprone horse…

[LookmaNohands]

Have you had your horse scoped? I have found that many people who think their horses have ulcers and throw lots of expensive supplements at them are just throwing money away when it turns out that the horse does not have ulcers.

I think it is wise to look at other things as well such as low level pain in the body and Lyme disease, which is rampant around here. Also consider the feeding program your horse as on as well as stressful living situation.

They all make a difference too.

[DancingArabian]

[QUOTE=LookmaNohands;7718026]
Have you had your horse scoped? I have found that many people who think their horses have ulcers and throw lots of expensive supplements at them are just throwing money away when it turns out that the horse does not have ulcers.

I think it is wise to look at other things as well such as low level pain in the body and Lyme disease, which is rampant around here. Also consider the feeding program your horse as on as well as stressful living situation.

They all make a difference too.[/QUOTE]

He has ulcers, they are healing. His ulcers were brought on by his feeding situation at his previous barn, which is why we left. They were flat out just not feeding him enough and it stressed him out. He’s in a much nicer barn now that’s a lot closer to me and which does a much better job about feeding.

[DancingArabian]

Bump.

[Sansena]

There’s no need for papaya or anything else if you’ve already decided to go the ‘Western’ medicine route, which you have by giving Ranitidine. But I will say you should look at your dosage and giving it outside of the grain meal.

When I worked at the clinic, Ranitidine was given 8 hrs apart, so 3x a day in an oral syringe. Remember, it’s an acid reducer, so giving simultaneously makes digesting grain that much harder. There’s some research out there that says Ranitidine can be helpful in healing ulcers, but that’s not how it was used at our clinic. Omeprazole, given at the correct dosage & duration was THE only thing those vets used to heal ulcers at that clinic.

I have no idea how the few Tums you give might impact the Cal/Phos ratio. I see you’re giving Alfalfa as well, which is high in Calcium, in the hopes of easing the ulcer condition. That would upset a balance more than a handful of Tums given sporadically. Rice bran is high in phosphorous, but I’m not sure adding a hi phos item to an ulcer prone horse is in his best interest. This is where an equine nutritionist, not just simply a GP vet, would come in handy.

It would seem you’re throwing the kitchen sink at this horse with respect to the ulcers. Since they’re so tricky to treat, I’d take him off the superfluous stuff like the papaya and 5 different supplements. I’d pick ONE medication for ulcers and use it correctly for the duration of treatment, rescoping after. Then I would decide which of the supplements were, in fact, still necessary.

[JB]

[QUOTE=Sansena;7728306]
Remember, it’s an acid reducer, so giving simultaneously makes digesting grain that much harder. [/QUOTE]
Ranitidine is not a contact acid reducer like, say, Tums. It works systemically by causing the stomach to produce less acid. The reason it’s given every 8 hours in healing ulcers is because that’s as long as it reduces acid production. It’s no different in this regard from omeprazole, only omeprazole reduces production for 24 hours, so is given just once a day.

I do think the ranitidine should be given every 8 hours, not just every 12, for healing ulcers. 2x/day is more suitable for prevention.

[Sansena]

Do any with equine veterinary experience care to chime in with regard to how Sucralfate would play a role here?

[J-Lu]

The tums before a ride or a stressful event won’t throw off the Calcium ratio. It’s only 500 mg of calcium carbonate per tablet. I know a show barn that feeds about 10 prior to a show ride and they don’t seem to have problems.

What exactly is Papaya supposed to do? I’m skeptical.

Does your horse have access to decent pasture? How is his turnout regime? Does he have quality hay in front of him most of the time?

[JB]

The average 1100lb horse in moderate work needs about 33gm of Ca a day. 500mg is a drop in the bucket. Even 5000mg - 5gm - is not a lot in the scheme of things. It’s even good if the horse is on all grass/grass hay which might be a little low in Ca.

Papaya has an enzyme which is supposed to help increase the production of mucus. I guess theoretically that’s supposed to help increase the protection of the stomach though I’m not convinced it does that, or at least not enough.

[tucktaway]

re: Sucralfate – here’s a succinct overview

http://www.wedgewoodpetrx.com/learning-center/professional-monographs/sucralfate-for-veterinary-use.html

[zippyrider]

This is what I give my horse, who is recovering from ulcers. It has papaya in it. He loves them.

http://www.biostarus.com/product-p/eq-tumease.htm

And more info…

http://blog.biostarus.com/2009/05/01/true-balance-versus-tum-ease/

[JB]

When horses are ridden, gastric acid production increases

and can leak or spill onto the delicate intestinal mucosa, causing irritation

I’ve been looking for any scholarly articles on papain/papaya and horses with ulcers and haven’t found any.

[zippyrider]

@JB;7729965

It makes sense to me that acidity increases in the stomach during riding. Horses produce stomach acid 24/7, and if the stomach is not full (like during times of riding), stomach acid will increase as there is no food to digest.

Here are a few articles:

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/digestive_system/gastrointestinal_ulcers_in_large_animals/gastric_ulcers_in_horses.html

“Ulcers in the nonglandular squamous mucosa are associated with repeated direct insult from ultra-low pH fluid normally found in the glandular region of the stomach. Pressure increases inside the abdomen (associated with exercise), collapsing the stomach and forcing the acid gastric contents upward. The more fluid (and highly acidic) contents of the lower stomach come in contact with the nonglandular squamous mucosa, causing inflammation and, potentially, erosions to varying degrees.”

http://www.succeed-equine.com/succeed-blog/2010/11/30/your-horse-ulcer-free-pt-3-colonic-ulcers-in-the-hindgut/

Although papaya is an ingredient in a supplement I use, I wouldn’t personally rely on it for ulcer treatment and prevention. That said, it may help soothe an irritated gut. A quick search of my own did not yield any studies on horses (which wouldn’t mean papaya is worthless in this case), but the earliest citation I found for papain and ulcers in humans was in Lancet 1895. Anecdotally, it helped me tremendously with pregnancy-related heartburn; saved my life!

[JB]

The product is saying acid production increases when the horse is ridden. That’s nonsense because, as you yourself said, the acid is produced 24x7. The acidity might decrease a bit when there’s food in the stomach, depending on what the horse ate, but when it’s empty, it only goes back to normal. That’s not the same as “acidity increases while riding”

[gumshoe]

Is there any information on the packaging about how much glutamine is contained in a “bar”? All the website says is “Tum-Ease EQ provides cabbage (organic), one of the best food sources of the amino acid, Glutamine, long studied for its benefits to intestinal mucosa.”

[QUOTE=zippyrider;7729923]
This is what I give my horse, who is recovering from ulcers. It has papaya in it. He loves them.

http://www.biostarus.com/product-p/eq-tumease.htm

And more info…

http://blog.biostarus.com/2009/05/01/true-balance-versus-tum-ease/[/QUOTE]

[Plips71755]

Questions but answers might not help

[QUOTE=DancingArabian;7717885]
A few questions…

1. I’ve been reading that papaya is great for horses with ulcers. I’ve read great things about Stomach Soother, but feeding him a liquid isn’t viable, so I need a tablet. Can anyone recommend papaya pills that I can add to his feed? Also, how do I figure out how much to give him?

2. I give my horse Tums before we go riding. He loves his Tums! I am concerned that the additional calcium from the Tums may cause problems down the road. Wouldn’t the calcium from the Tums throw off his calcium to phosphorus ratio? Should I be adding something else to his feed to help with this? If so, what and how much?

3. I’ve also read that flaxseed is also good for horses that are ulcer-prone and to feed 1/2 cup per day. Any truth to this?

If anyone is curious, he gets this as his feed 2x/day:

• 1/2 pound KER AllPhase
• 1 pound alfalfa pellets
• MSM (I keep him on the loading dose since I’ve read MSM is good for ulcery horse
• ProBios probiotic
• Summer Games Electrolyte (when it’s very hot or very cold out)
• Ranitidine (3000mg)
• SmartCalm Ultra (1x/day)
• Smart Digest Ultra (1x/day)[/QUOTE]

The owner here on this old thread asks about tums, flax seed and papaya or Stomach Soother. I agree with others, the Tums probably aren’t an issue but if the calcium is also in all those supplements - maybe so. Flax seed whole does seem to produce a protective action and the omega 3s couldn’t hurt inflammation wise and papaya - I think the jury is still out and I wouldn’t waste money. I know for people there can be drug interactions, and issues for pregnant and nursing women. http://superfoodprofiles.com/papaya-enzyme-side-effects-warnings

Flax seed is usually recommended at anywhere from 2-8 oz a day depending on what you are trying to achieve and whether whole or ground. If you grind yourself, it must be done daily and the grinder cleaned dail also - it goes rancid quick and loses its value. If you buy pre ground - it is heat stabilized but still doesn’t last long. Many say whole is okay but I have seen figures as high as 50% of it lost and not digested. Ground is generally though best but is more time consuming. If you don’t feed your horse yourself, don’t expect that barn help will grind it for you. And if the machine is left with old material and rancid,mother the horse won’t eat at all. You can’t grind and baggy for a week especially in summer. Also make sure if you buy a supplement with flax in it, to make sure you are getting the amount you need per serving if feeding for a specific purpose.
As with people, the prevention or cure of stomach problems is to eliminate the cause. However, as you said, his ulcers were caused or made worse by feeding issues which caused stress at your other barn. As someone who has stomach issues, including ulcers, I know when my stomach is empty, it really hurts until I put something in to soak up the acid. Stress is not always easily eliminated. Sometimes we owners cause more stress than anything. Like someone else asked asked, I would be concerned about anyone feeding all these supplements and feed/ration balancer products. In the equation above I only see a horse being fed 2x a day and the only hay/feed I see is 1lb alfalfa pellets 2x day. If that is all he gets, I think this horse could benefit from more frequent feedings - a minimum of 3 with hay and plenty of good pasture/turnout most of the day. Also, if pastured, fed alone so as not to be stressed and bolt his feed though he isn’t getting much to bolt. Pellets are heavy so a pound of alfalfa pellets isn’t a lot. Now we don’t know why this horse is receiving such a small amount of feed so it is difficult. Maybe he is on excellent pasture all day and doesn’t need calories though many ulcer horses are thin but not always. But most horses are recommended to receive 2% of their weight in dry forage a day - 1000 lb horse = 20 lbs hay or a substitute based on this equivalent of hay. I am assuming this horse was scoped several times since she stated healing. I can’t imagine a vet recommending this amount of supplements and I think sometimes folks supplement too much with products that duplicate themselves. Many times if they would feed the recommended feed based on mfg directions they wouldn’t have to supplement unless there are chronic issues causing a deficiency or you just want to add fat to give calories and energy without issues of grain. Almost all feeds state a minimum amount to feed - for many it is min 5 lbs. They will state if you have to feed less than 5 lbs a day (or whatever the number on the bag), then you should add a ration balancer to provide the needed protein, vitamins, minerals needed. Feed products whether based on grains, alfalfa based or beet pulp etc all have to be fed accurately by weight at the manufacturer’s directions. When you don’t do this you run the risk (at worst) of getting your horse’s mineral balances out of whack and cause medical issues, or (at the least) are wasting money that your horse is just eliminating. We have to remember too that different grains, pellets, etc have different weights, I.e., corn is heavier than bran, and oats depending on quality can vary quite a bit in weight - heavy oats are best. Every barn should have a scale for weighing feed including a larger one for hay. Different types of hay are heavier than others too - high quality pretty leafy green alfalfa is always heavie as opposed to over mature mixed grass hay. Brown alfalfa stalks with no leaves is light too? So personally, I would want to get my vet and/or a horse nutritionist involved to make sure I was feeding an ulcer type horse enough and not over doing the supplements especially when I’m already giving a drug to help his stomach. On the sucraphate - I use it myself but the liquid and I feel it works best in the beginning because it coats the stomach then I switch to pills which is cheaper. Don’t know for horses but for people it is 4x a day and timing is a little fussy.