I think you three – @SuzieQNutter, you, and @JB are each right in your own way – or better said, none of you are necessarily wrong.
Every horse and their situation is… well… situational.
Management does cause ulcers. Fact.
External circumstances outside of management can cause ulcers. Fact.
Horses can be born with ulcers, or internalize in ideal situations and develop them. Fact.
Riding can cause ulcers. Fact.
I have one of those horses. He has the textbook ulcer-management treatment. He is turned out full time, on grass pasture with a round bale 24/7. He lives on my quiet farm, loves his herd mates, and loves being outside. He wants for nothing. For grain he is on a low NSC feed and alfalfa pellets, 2x a day. He is on Platinum Performance CJ, Vit E, and is dappled and happy. It is always a pleasure to ride him and with him, there are no bad days.
Yet, he has ulcers. In his case, I know the ulcers are from trailering because the incidence of them is far fewer in the winter (when we do not travel anywhere because of weather). So in our busy season when we hunterpace and show, he is on Nexium.
I’m not going to stop riding him or stop taking him places. This is the trade off he gets for being cared for and wanting for nothing. I make sure to keep traveling low stress and always go for the shorter trailer rides if I can – and I space out my destinations so we are not traveling six times a week.
The best management is obviously the first step – and I think the three of you agree there. For the most part, people treat but don’t change the management. The first step is always: turn out with a buddy and full access to roughage. So it’s worth mentioning these things until the cows come home because not many people are willing to do it… but there are still horses out there in ideal situations who can develop ulcers.
My ulcery guy is a draft cross. He is on 24/7 turnout on lush pasture with a roundbale for the fall and winter. He is fed soaked alfalfa pellets 2X a day, with OutLast supplement and omeprazole in the AM. He has one turnout buddy that he gets along with beautifully. Pretty much the perfect situation for an ulcery horse.
He is fat, shiny, dappled and calm.
That was the situation when I tried to wean him off the omeprazole with very poor results.
This horse will need good management AND omeprazole for the rest of this life. His personality is that of a worrier. Any change worries him. Even when not ulcery, he will chew his bit and click his teeth when something new and exciting happens.
His previous history is that he developed the ulcers when on stall rest for a month. The previous owner scoped him four separate times and did the 28 day Gastro Gard course three times before conceding that he couldn’t be managed well at the barn where he was boarded.
Yes, I have also known people who have had great success with ullcers and OTTBs with just good management and diet. It is certainly the first place to start! However, please accept other people’s experiences as valid; or accept that your experience is not universal.
Insurance should pay for scope and treatment and re-check. It’s killing me now that he’s off all meds and is only on neighlox. But I rode him yesterday and he was chill and relatively happy so that at least made me feel better. Vet wants to make sure that the effects of misoprostol—that he was living on—have ceased before we scope. What’s interesting is that we have really struggled with right lead canter—he is resistant to getting the lead under saddle (lunge is fine), and does not want to hold it. I read that because the majority of the hindgut lies on that side, issues with the right lead canter can be indicative of hindgut ulcers.
This horse is definitely an internalizer. He has a fantastic brain and is brave, with very little spook, but he’s highly intelligent and emotional. To this day, he sniffs new things like a puppy, gets excited when kids run around, and looks for his human to reassure him. These qualities make me love him to pieces, but I think even with the perfect management, he’d still have ulcers, assuming that’s what we’re dealing with.
This is exactly how I feel. I know ulcers can happen under ideal management but that shouldn’t mean ideal management is pointless. The same way I can get hurt in a car accident with my seatbelt on doesn’t make my seatbelt useless
For me personally though, I would never be able to afford to pay for ulcer treatment without management changes. The horses health aside, that’s just a waste of money in my opinion. If some people can afford to repeatedly treat ulcers for the horse’s entire life then more power to you, but I treated ulcers once and it was very expensive for my bank account. If I regularly had to do that I just wouldn’t be able to afford it. If you can great though.
On the note about horses that are just “born worriers”… I know those horses exist but I feel like we don’t do enough… or anything to help those horses. I just know too often, I see horse owners with a horse that is either super herd bound, horrible trailer anxiety, insanely spooky, and they just kind of have the attitude of like “that’s how he is and that’s how he’ll always be so my hands are tied!” And that I just don’t agree with. It takes a lot of work and there may always be some lingering anxiety beneath the surface but you should take on the role of “horse psychologist” and help teach them relax. I think it’s just not a priority for people.
With my guy, the key to success is repitition. Calm, quiet repitition. Our motto with him is “Lather, rinse, repeat.” Once he’s familar with what’s being asked of him, he’s fine.
I am going to zip up my flame suit and post something controversial. This horse is the exception to my life long belief that Ace does not facilitate training, and in many cases, keeps the horse from processing the experience and learning.
In my horse’s case, a tiny bit of Ace, like 3/4 of a cc, is a kindness because it keeps him from being so worried when confronted with something new, and it ALLOWS him to process because he’s not so worried. To be clear - the horse doesn’t misbehave when anxious, he’s just not a happy horse when anxious. And I want him to be happy and to like his job.
I’m a pretty “crunchy” horse person. I don’t believe in a lot of aids, think horses should be out 24/7, low NSC diet, I occasionally use +R training, but I actually agree with you on the ace thing. I don’t think it has much to do with the ace as I think it’s just about staying under your horses emotional threshold. Ace just happens to help with achieving that.
Would I ace my horse on a windy day so I could go have a jump lesson? No I wouldn’t, but I would change my plans to keep my horse under threshold. But would I ace a horse for a farrier visit? Or trailering? Or something that we had to do? Yea I would, because I I think it’s better that they stay under that threshold.
My example: Horse’s first time hacking our in a big group with strange horses in a strange location - 3/4 cc when we unloaded. Just to stay under the threshold for the first 45 minutes. Clealy the ace was gone by the time we finished the ride 2 and 1/2 hours later and he was calm. It was just to keep him from working up at the beginning.
And I didn’t give him the ace the next time we went out.
at least one study did prove that a horse can learn under the influence of Ace, when used appropriately
Results indicate tranquilized horses had similar learning performance on simple spatial and discrimination tests as those that were not tranquilized. Tranquilization makes the horse more tractable without significantly affecting learning performance.
Flame suit zipped here: in my early 20s I started a string of young RID and draft Xs for a foxhunter. He often administered ace to them for their first hunt to keep them below threshold and tractable. I rode them with zero issues and every one of them finished the meet confident and ready for their next outing. I haven’t needed it for my personal horses, but it is another small tool for the toolbox in the right dosage and application.
After my mare scoped clean for ulcers, my vet recommended acing her before trailering to hunts as we suspected that she got nervous on the trailer. I had not aced her before, but 1 cc it made a big difference in terms of keeping her from getting agitated. I have a camera in the back and she would get restless in the trailer – not from any particular bad experience, but it happened. And yes, I foxhunted her when we arrived. I am not an advocate of Ace for every problem, but sometimes it can help transition the horse back to a better place.
I used to have a vet who told me that some horses were just “ace deficient”.
I am very surprised by the last several responses!
@JB, thank you for sharing that study! That is very interesting.
I always had a problem with a horse having to have Ace to hunt. That’s an awful lot of Ace to administer over the horses lifetime. First several hunts? Sure. Maybe even whole first season? Maybe. Occassionally with a nervous novice on board? Also sure. But to say categorically a horse has to be aced to hunt? Ehhhhh, no.
I also am against the routine use of Ace or other sedatives for first time clipping or trailering.
Do some horses need sedation for body clipping? OMG, yes. But I always start out trying to desensitize the horse to the clippers, setting them up for a good experience and lavishly rewarding them when the stand quietly. If you always start out with sedation, or you sedate routinely, I do think you lose the lesson.
But prior to acquiring this horse, I didn’t think I would Ace my own horse to hunt. Who knows, maybe another horse will change my mind about the rest. (As a much younger horse girl, I refused to sedate to body clip. Then I had a horse in the barn that had incredibly sensitive skin, who wasn’t necessarily badly behaved, but whose skin would literally crawl as you tried to clip him. I clipped him twice with a good handler, and at the end, the horse, the handler and I were all exhausted. Sedation was better.)
Of course I accept other peoples experiences. Please accept that other people also have those experiences as well before the horse comes here. So the only real test is to send the horse here.
Stars- ulcers, 100% bucks on lunge. Can’t put weight on him. You can see ribs. No matter how much they tried to put weight on. He doesn’t just buck under saddle he leaps in the air and bucks.
I have heard it said before that a horse is soft. I have not really thought about it before. This horse was different to groom. I would call him soft. I can just tell you from experience it was not right.
He was owned by a vet nurse so under vet care all the time for meds etc.
He is now normal to feel to groom. He is fat and an air fern. He has never bucked on the lunge.
I felt the jump in the air and buck once in the beginning. I had him down on a different part of the paddock and dismounted to fix fencing. When I went to hop back on he was shaking. Whether that was from fear or excitement the result was the same.
The power OMG. When a horse can take the weight behind to go up the levels. We were on a steep slope to go up and he was on a loose rein. Because it was a steep slope he only went a few inches forward. I dismounted at the next down and up and he has been here years on the new feed now and hasn’t done it again and we have done quite a bit of trail riding. But I am not surprised she sold him after feeling that at a cross country clinic. It would be too much for an ammie to cope with.
Each horse is managed for themself. Sim was the internalist. The worrier. The horse with ulcers, the horse who paced and ran his paddock.
We let him out so he could visit anyone he wanted and with his training he turned a corner when I gained his confidence. With his confidence in his rider he has turned from a deep worrier. To a dressage horse who is great as a schoolmaster for riders.
Yes I get called lucky a lot.
I grew up on an agistment property and saw the problems other kids had.
Especially beginners buying ottbs or daddy buying the 2 year old chestnut filly to be broken in by daughter who can not do a rising trot after a 45 minute talk with Mum about why that was a bad idea.
I started with horses before I could walk, my sister put me in front of her while jumping. That was in Western Australia.
Then onto Victoria with a rescue and ponyclub.
I was then an instructor in pony club in Queensland with a lot of students. A lot of horses.
I worked at a place in Queensland with 70 horses in the herd, training for my EFA Level 1 instructors.
As a level 1 instructor I worked at a place in New South Wales with 50 horses and people who brought their own horses in as well. I was classically trained there. I was paid to take lessons on other people horses.
I have probably ridden and managed a lot more horses than the average joe.
The comment I get in lessons is how relaxed the horse is - Instructor after instructor after instructor.
I am back in Queensland now.
I train horses on the ground as well, so they are quiet to handle, to lead to groom, to tack and untack, to bathe, to trim.
I get called lucky that I have quiet horses.
So please do not think that I have been in one place with only a handful of horses. I have learned and listened to every single horse.
I have never seen a horse with a chain to be led. I have never seen cross ties. I have never seen a horse drugged to be ridden. I have never seen kissing spine. I do not have horses with ulcers.
But people at an event think you are lucky that you have a trained quiet horse.
It seems that they do not think that comes from training. It does. It comes from the day to day interaction with a horse, the management and the training, which i have found means no ulcers.
And it is not just the grass. I was feeding 7 times a day during the last drought with not a blade of grass on 100 acres and no hay left to buy anywhere and I didn’t want them eating the dirt. It is the whole management of the horse that counts.
I posted my experience about a horse for whom management alone was not the answer:
I had the horse in a perfect ulcer management protocol for 6 months before attempting to wean him off meds.
In addition, I can tell you that this is a very small, quiet, private barn. No radios, no foot traffic.
Your response to me and this experience was:
It seemed to me that you are discounting my experience with a horse with excellent management still needing meds as not valid.
Do you have other suggestions as to how I can change management practices? Because I would love to have this horse completely off meds.
You also seemed to refute other poster’s experiences: that foals can be born with ulcers, that:
I am not questioning that you have good management practices of that you’ve had a great success rate with changing management practices in helping OTTBs with ulcers.
Why are you so reluctant to believe other’s experiences just because they are not the same as yours?
My young OTTB doesn’t have much trail experience. First time out, we went with a trusted friend and her babysitter Percheron. He started tense but settled and was great for the rest of the ride.
We didn’t need Ace for that trip. On the other hand, I’m planning a longer park trip with a few friends whose horses are younger and not as steady. A little Ace to take the edge off and hopefully keep all four on the floor and his brain between his ears if one of the others acts up? Yup.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with judicious use of Ace to help make first exposures or unusually stressful situations a little less so. I guess I’ll join the flame suit crew.
Oh my gosh, do not feel guilty. Your trainer’s plan was a sound one, and the symptoms you describe sound exactly like my horse. He had a pyloric ulcer and glandular inflammation, and with treatment over about six week, it all healed. His ulcers were brought on by undiagnosed pain.
Hygain Zero might be a wheat free and soy free option. My horse did really well on it. Sadly, it is not readily available where we live now. But anyway, see what you think.
