Causes… Sounds like the other horse said something very inappropriate and unforgivable. Has anyone asked his side of the story? I find teaching ESL to my animals very beneficial but my current dog has been theee slowest, mostly because she’s a narcissist and doesn’t care but it’s slowly improving.
Sorry, maybe not HIS side of the story, your horse’s side of the story. What insult was given?
Maybe read the whole post where I said this happened to my personal horse as the victim and the aggressor and my horse successfully went on to be friends again after some time apart.
Understand that you are the exception. Most of us would not be foolish enough to risk that type of attack (from a known aggressor - obviously there are always risks with group turnout) again.
Just as some cat-aggressive dogs can be reformed, some can only be partially reformed, so it goes with horses. Some who have learned they can be that aggressive may seem reformed until whatever sets them off and they do the same or worse the next time.
Think how the BO, ultimately responsible for the safety of ALL the horses, would feel if the OP’s horse fell into the second category of appearing reformed, but not, and a third incident occurred. On top of feelings, there are also liabilities.
FWIW, the horse I knew that ultimately died from a horse attack, was reintroduced properly after the first incident and things were peaceful in that field for weeks. Until they weren’t. Someone LOST THEIR HORSE because of this exact type of situation. Lost their horse quite horribly. BO’s were pretty lucky that the DEAD horse’s owner was not the litigious type.
I had a pony mare who was similar - fine until she wasn’t. She attacked another mare once and a gelding several years later. At just under 14.1, she got a 16.2 WB onto the ground.
After the second attack, she lived out her days contentedly on solo turnout. She was an odd duck and a bit stallion-like in her behaviour (I.e. had a designed poo spot etc and had significant canine teeth) but was perfectly amiable with people.
I agree with your (I would think) obvious conclusion. Once a horse has shown the extreme aggression of pinning another horse to the ground there should be no “second chances”. It would be foolish in the extreme to risk another horse being purposefully injured or killed by a horse that exhibited that behavior.
That type of extremely aggressive behavior is not a pasture “accident” such as a kick or a bite that can happen in group turnout, it is an unacceptable risk that no experienced and intelligent horse person would ever repeat.
Your personal horses. Your personal risk. Your personal choice.
Putting such a horse in with one or more of your clients’ personal horses is a completely different issue. We aren’t talking about the same risk situation at all.
Actually, no, It’s not a completely different issue. My clients are aware of the risks of putting horses in herds together and if there is an issue with herd dynamics, I discuss it with them and they are always 100% informed. I have cameras covering both ends of my barn and my entire pasture so if something happens I know exactly how it happens unless it is overnight.
Many of my clients seek out my program specifically because the horses are turned out together And for horses that have not been in a herd situation before, the clients are always pleasantly surprised how much happier their horses are, even despite some initial scuffles and bite or kick marks.
If you have had a horse knock down another and try to savage it at your barn, your clients should certainly be informed “100%” if you plan to turn their horses out with that horse.
If they agree to that, I can only believe that they are not at all experienced with horse behavior in a turnout situation (which you admit), and also that you may not be the best barn manager to make that decision for them, if you believe that horse should have a “second chance” to savage another horse.
Again, the OP is not talking about “herd dynamics”. How you can possibly think that a horse with the type of aggression we are discussing deserves a “second chance” to seriously attack another is beyond me, and makes me believe that you have probably never seen that type of aggression. It is not something that anyone who cares for horses wants to see, or to have any chance of happening again.
Still not the same risks as putting a horse with a history of aggressive attacks that knocked down a healthy horse in with horses that don’t belong to you or the aggressive horse’s owner.
This specific situation involving the horse with a history of this sort of unexpected aggression is entirely different from generally putting horses in group turnout. A horse losing a little hair and skin is no big deal. Most horses, even unsocialized horses, find their place in the group with any serious injuries occuring, much less any serious aggressive behaviour. Your posts show that you know this. I don’t understand why you’re saying this ordinary behaviour is identical to the extraordinarily aggressive behaviour under discussion in this thread.
I think that the seriousness of the kind of true “I’m going to kill you” aggression from horses, either towards humans or other horses, is not understood by people until they’ve seen it.
In our innocence, we all thought that horses were mostly kind, that some were high strung, but we never thought that there was a level of aggressiveness in some horses that is truly horrifying.
Live and learn, and hopefully not the hard way to any horses or humans detriment. It is frightening that some BOs don’t know what they don’t know.
Things I would medically check: hormones, ulcers. Medical things I would worry about but unsure how one would check: brain tumors.
I have personally witnessed a single incident of a horse behaving extremely aggressive with another horse. An 8 yr old gelding ran into, knocked down and savaged a mid teens gelding. The aggressor was more recently gelded and had been bred a few times prior to gelding. The aggressor had no prior history of this kind of behavior. After the incident he was managed via solo turnout and then later successfully turned out with a strong mare for years. No further incidents. ETA: the aggressor and the strong mare belonged to the same owner and were turned out together with the owner’s full knowledge and acceptance of risk.
In addition to medical concerns, I’ll note that resource scarcity does seem to contribute to heightened aggression. Too many horses for a paddock size, too many horses per hay or water station etc. Horses that are very hungry milling around at the paddock gate at dinner time. It seems logical to me that a horse with ulcers might have behaviors similar horses driven by resource scarcity.
I don’t think anyone on this thread has said they are against group turnout. We all understand that horses in group turnout tend to be happier and more well adjusted to life as human toys. I’d go as far as to bet that the majority of posters on this thread have their personal horses in group turnout because we know it’s better for them and are lucky enough to have it available.
THAT is not the issue. Minor scuffles are not the issue. We are talking about more than a game of chase, a little biting or the occasional kicking match. We are talking about a horse that has exhibited extreme aggressive behaviour and is turned out with other horses owned by OTHER people.
Exactly this. There would be, under no uncertain circumstances, no way my horse would be going out with a horse with that type of history and certainly no second chances if my horse was the one attacked.
Our horses try their darndest to maim themselves. They don’t need any help and I don’t need anymore vet bills than I already have.
OP I don’t have any other thoughts on what may be causing this to happen, but lots of good suggestions from others here to start with. I hope you’re able to figure something out.
This is very, very true….
While I agree that it’s solo turnout for this horse from now on, something changed. I’d be testing hormone levels, EPM, Cushings, Lyme and any other tick born diseases. Ive had horses whose only symptom was irritability and/or extreme aggression with 3 of the 4 conditions. (I haven’t had one with hormone issues yet).